Preliminary thoughts on an Empire 598 III

[Montycat]

I brought home this Empire 598 III turntable yesterday and tonight had a chance to actual do a bit of work on it. As I mentioned on my blog and in another thread, it is not mine but I am trying to see what I can do to fix it up for sale for a colleague. However I am very tempted to keep it! Price TBD...

At first I thought the stylus was beyond hope but it turned out to be ok to at least test on a so-so disc. This time it was not my sacrificial Frankie Laine, but the Isley Brothers...sorry bros!


Empire 598 1 by Buhduh, on Flickr

I first tried some cosmetic work and here is one of my concerns. The gold or brass colour is I think just a thin anodizing. The main top panel on the plinth is in great condition but there is some light scoring on the platter sides, plus significant tarnish on the tonearm, esp the headshell and base areas. I think the scoring on the platter will have to stay as is, but I would like to get rid of the tarnish though I am afraid of taking the gold right off. For some of the tight spots around the tonearm I would like to try a polishing pad with my Dremel at low speed.

The tonearm parts actually look like solid brass and, if they are, polishing would be no problem, but if it is just a thin coating I could remove it which obviously I don't want to do. Thoughts on that?


Empire Tonearm by Buhduh, on Flickr

I also figured out a few other things partially with help from the manual over at VE. The motor spindle seemed to angle toward the platter and the belt would not stay on the larger 45 rpm portion. I also noticed that there was a lot of vibration when the motor cover was screwed down tight, but when I loosened it that went away. This lead me to the motor mount screw in the lower left of the below pic. Adjusting that caused the motor to ride on an even keel and moved the screw down so it did not translate motor noise to the top plate.



Empire 598 3 by Buhduh, on Flickr

In the pic of the platter, you can see 2 issues. One is that the platter rides high on the left by about 3/32". I will adjust the suspension and that should fix that. The other thing is that the rubber mat does not flatten out well. The centre of the matt is a bit too small to sit around the platter raised area. When I force it down the edges warp a bit. You should be able to see a bit of the yellow wall under the disc at the left that illustrates the worst spot well. I could try to stretch or even sand a bit from the mat centre to make it drop flat on the platter...


Empire 598 4 by Buhduh, on Flickr


Empire 598 2 by Buhduh, on Flickr

I also did a few minutes of polishing on the lid, which I think is plexiglass. I think a nice upgrade would be to change that for glass. I would be afraid to damage the wood that surrounds it though by removing the plexi as it seems to be glued in. Glass would be much classier though.

I still don't know that this will be a keeper yet. I do have to talk to the owner about the price. Regardless I will be charging him money or something for the the time I spend. I just don't want to spend many hours until it is actually mine!

 

[Montycat]

I have spent another hour or 2 on the Empire and it is coming along.

Orange oil on a cloth, and a toothbrush (I can't stand the Butler one I bought lately, but it's a good metal scrubber) have cleaned up the wood and metal. The grain pops out a lot more now, scratches in the wood are hard to see, and the tarnish and dirt is at an acceptable level.

Empire 598 5 by Buhduh, on Flickr


(Pardon the watermark thing below. After I found some people using my pics without credit or permission I experimented with that)

Empire 598 6 by Buhduh, on Flickr


I have figured out tracking force and skate bias adjustments, though they still could be probably fine tuned a bit more with a test record. I'm running at about 1.65 gm, with 1.5 on the anti-skate ATM and Neil Young sounds just about as quavery as he should and no more. Speed sounds fine but I don't have a decent way to strobe it yet.

The platter sits at the manual-recommended 3/16" or very close to it and level now after working with the 3 wingnuts underneath. I used 3 stacks of business cards to act as guides; 15 cards was very close to 3/16".

I also managed to get the rubber platter mat to sit a lot flatter. I simply pulled and stretched it and it is much better now.

The end of record arm lift is pretty dialed, but the cuing still puzzles me. I can't see how it lifts the tonearm yet, as the cam seems to only operate some parts horizontally not vertically. Also a small part has fallen out from under the cuing platform. You can see the little split pin in foreground of the last pic. I can see the hole it is supposed to go into but it seems to me it should go through an outer hole into an inner one on the very centre of the tonearm mount but I can't see what it aligns with.


Empire 598 7 by Buhduh, on Flickr

It's bed time anyway, but I like this table! I do have to hit the sack so I can try to pick up the light bulb for it before work in the morning...

 

[MRL_Audio]

Looks great. Couple of things. I would not mess with the gold finish. As old as these are once the anodized finish is off, scratched or an area has some tarnish it will be better to leave it as is barring a dusting or use of Windex to shine the base a bit. I tried to do a little cleanup on the outer ring of mine and regret ever touching it. second in Pic 3, that knurled round nut is basically the speed adjustment screw. Once you have the proper light to check the strobe disk this nut, looser or tighter, will help to zero in on the correct speed. If it's too tight the motor will vibrate to the rest of the base. There is a guy on eBay and there are other sources for the grommets. I picked up a belt and the proper light at turntablebasics.com. There is a LONG and excellent thread on these tables in here somewhere. Suggest a search. These are great tables and I am certain someone with more knowledge than I will weigh in. Good luck with this.

 

[Big Bill]

The tonearm parts actually look like solid brass and, if they are, polishing would be no problem, but if it is just a thin coating I could remove it which obviously I don't want to do. Thoughts on that?

They are not solid brass. Read the Empire history sticky at the top of the turntables main page for the proper way to clean the 598 finish and replace those dried up motor grommetts as well. :yes:

 

[62sunbeam]

No windex on Aluminum or anything anodized! It will ruin it.

I'm a big fan of diluted Simple Green.

Good luck.

Eric

 

[MRL_Audio]

No windex on Aluminum or anything anodized! Eric

I used it with no ill effects. Actually shined the outer ring of my platter quite nicely and did nothing to the anodized finish. I know there are differing strengths of Windex. This was the basic variety. No bleach, no extra strength. Just plain ole Windex. Obviously it sounds like YMMV.

 

[totem]

Nice project table Monty. A quick way I use to set plater height and other clearance
situations is to open up the drill bit case and use one as a gauge.
Helps if you have letter, numbered etc to pick the closest you need for certain situations.

 

[dtut]

The 598 cueing is finicky and easy to knock out of alignment. There was a good thread here within the last year I think about how to deal with that. A search of "598" threads should turn something up.

Doug Tuthill

 

[Montycat]

Thanks for the tips everyone.

I've read quite a bit on this table in the various threads including the sticky, but that's a long one and I haven't made it all the way through yet.

It's funny how so many variations of methods come up. I've got it about as clean as I am going to, mostly dry wiping and a small amount of alcohol, and the toothbrush. The platter is the only scratched bit, and the only way to fix that would be polishing and re-anodizing and that's not practical. I read of one guy painting the aluminum plinth cover and that's a no go. This one is in great shape and I wouldn't want to loose those machining marks anyway.

It's also odd how so may things get out of adjustment. Speed adjuster was way out of whack before I began, platter uneven, tonearm super low, Dynalift way out, etc. I'm almost surprised the hinges work.

 

[empirelvr]

I don't have my 990 arm near me at the moment, but I think that cotter pin is part of the underside of the cuing mechanism. IIRC, It doesn't go through a hole, per se, but is part of the fulcrum, held in place by spring pressure and a dab of glue.

The cueing mechanism operates the reverse of what one ususally sees. On most cues, lifting the lever causes a platform to rise, which comes in contact with the arm via a small thin post that protrudes from the bottom of the arm in some fashion.

On the Empire 990 arm, the platform is part of the arm tube (though pressfit and able to be knocked out of true) and what rises is the small, thin post.

On a lot of 990 arms the cueing ills are any combination of the platform being misaligned, the rubber being missing on the platform, the post (which is a screw) either missing or screwed down too far, or the delicate lever mechanism being hamfistedly tampered with. Getting the cue back in shape is a long process, but workable.

If you want glass, go for it! The glue holding the plexiglass in (and the dustcover together) is very old by this time and most likely quite weak. You should be able to disassemble and reassemble it fairly easily.

If you do though replace the plexi with real glass, the weight of the real glass will probably show up the wear in the hinges. It all boils down to how handy you are and how deep you're willing to get your hands dirty restoring this beauty. (And it IS a beauty!)

 

[Montycat]

I found my cuing pad which was just hanging around in the space under the back end of the tonearm horizontal tube. It had fallen off the metal plate, probably from dried out glue I guess. You can see the screw that can adjust the range of the cuing height and the pad as well.

I hope my pics help others as some of the instructions I have read, while very helpful, did not illustrate this well. As I usually upload to Flickr, you can usually click on my images and then zoom in to a larger size.

Anyway I used thin double sided tape, a pair of needle nose and some small implements to get it back in place and voila! I have cuing! :yes:

I do get a lot of outward drift when I drop the arm with the cuing lever though. The table is not perfectly level at the moment but pretty darn close, so I don't think that is it. I also tried at various anti skate settings and it did not change it noticeably. It still works pretty well, but I will mess around with that later.

Empire 598 8 by Buhduh, on Flickr


The little pin I reinserted in the tonearm base which I am sure it came out of. I don't understand it's function though. It looks like it is supposed to control the range of the cuing arm base either rotationally or vertically, but when the arm is adjusted vertically to where I think it should be more or less, it does not come close to being able to do either (too low). The hole it went into was a bit deformed like the pin had a lot of weight on it which had probably been caused by the tonarm being dropped way too low.

Here is another view (I should put this one in the Bokeh thread...)

Empire 598 9 by Buhduh, on Flickr


The pin only goes in about 1/4 of its total length, just the thickness of the outer cylinder the tonearm raises and lowers inside. :scratch2: I pressed it in with a pair of slip joints with the protection on the jaws to prevent damaging anything. I am still puzzled by this pin as I don't see mention of it elsewhere as to the function of it. Admittedly I have only made it to the 35th page in the Empire sticky.

As for the Dyna-Lift I have it working but I will have to mess around there somewhat. I've read that it can be adjusted for a gentle action, but it still seems very abrupt so far.

 

[MRL_Audio]

Sounds like good progress. The Dyna-Lift is control by the position of the arm to the table and the height of the arm. I had many hours of adjustments before I had it where it was a subtle "lift" vs. violently abrupt. It will take some time.

In picture 1 of the cuing there are some nuts etc showing from the bottom, need to go back and look at mine because I have no idea what those are for.

 

[Montycat]

Just when I though I was safe, another Empire turntable invades my apartment!

My "guy" who has set me up with the 598 above and the AR to refurbish called me today. He picked up another 598 version II this time. He got them from the same person and looks like the plan is now to fix both up (the 598 III is pretty dialed now) and he and I will keep them or sell them. How I assess the condition of this one will determine how much he pays the original owner for both.

The one I brought home today is in worse shape than the other one at least at first sight. The wood is a bit worse, the screw for the motor cover is missing, the proprietary tonearm cable is gone, no belt, no stylus. These are not so serious.

The custom cable I think I can figure out with some other pins such as for speakers and make an interconnect.

Potentially the worst news of all is that the motor does not run. It spins fine, but when I plug it in nothing happens. I am hoping of course that is just the switch or something else before the motor but that might not be the case.

I think this motor is 3 phase and I am not quite sure the capacitor rating yet. I can clip wires and directly bypass the capacitor and switch to test the motor as the wires could be crimped together later if it is ok. Unfortunately none of the contact points between the line cord entry and the motor are exposed so it's not completely straightforward.

The good news is that the cartridge sled is there and the nothing seems broken. I've learned a lot already and this one will live again too...I hope!

 

[empirelvr]

You can use any 4uf capacitor rated over 250V to test/replace the electrolytic one, should that be the fault. The capacitor is only there to get it running in the right direction.

 

[Montycat]

I've determined the switch is ok. Power gets to the lamp socket for example.

However I think I may be able to call the motor on the second Empire shot. I tested as far as I could along the circuit after stripping off some shrink wrap. I eventually cut the 3 leads to the motor and applied AC directly and still got nothing. I just measured for resistance across all the motor wire combinations and all I get is zero ohms, an open circuit. Damn!

Anyone got a spare Pabst motor?

 

[empirelvr]

You can't just apply straight AC to the motor. You *need* to have a cap across two of the leads to get it to turn. (Which two leads determines which direction the motor will turn.)

Having said that though, when you did apply AC to any two of the leads, did you feel the motor vibrate at all or was it totally "dead?" There should have been at least a feeling of vibration from what I remember working on an old 298 from way back.

 

[Montycat]

You can't just apply straight AC to the motor. You *need* to have a cap across two of the leads to get it to turn. (Which two leads determines which direction the motor will turn.)

Having said that though, when you did apply AC to any two of the leads, did you feel the motor vibrate at all or was it totally "dead?" There should have been at least a feeling of vibration from what I remember working on an old 298 from way back.

I thought I would get something, but I think from what I have read that capacitor spoofs regular AC into acting like 3 phase, so it would reach the motor as 115v from the blue wire (which does not go past the cap) to each side of the circuit.

purple < 115v > blue < 115v > brown

No hum or noise at all. There also is absolutely no resistance measured across the motor but I am not sure there should be.

Good news is though I am getting a tiny bit of voltage generated across the motor wires when I spin it. I will test to see if I get AC at the other end of the wires I clipped which are after the cap but before the motor. If nothing there I think it is the cap that is gone.

 

[Montycat]

I just measured voltage after the capacitor as I depicted above and got what I thought I should about 115v on both sides. Measuring across the 2 leads that do come from the cap (purple and brown) I got about 30volts but it dropped down over several seconds to just about 1 to 2 volts.

I hooked the wires back to the motor and still zilch.

 

[Montycat]

Any one have any more diagnostic help on this motor? My fear is that it is done for, and they are not falling out of trees around here.

I can't see an easy way to disassemble it more than taking it our of the housing grid that surrounds it, which I have done. If I did take it apart more I don't what I could do inside anyway.

 

[bolero]

I found this thread searching for info on a 598 I just picked up...

montycat, are you sure that piece of rubber for the cue lift is supposed to be glued underneath the flat metal piece? would it not make more sense to have rubber cushioning the tonarm: ie. glue it on top of that metal piece?

my 598 is missing that rubber thing too, I've been googling trying to find reference pics and yours are the only ones I could find


thanks for documenting this! :thmbsp: