PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP with KEF 104/2 Reference Series

[MCM_Fan]

I am in the process of moving and downsizing. I am currently driving a pair of restored KEF 104/2 Reference Series speakers with a Bryston 4BSST power amp and a Sonic Frontiers Line 1 tube preamp. I love this combo as the Bryston has more power than I will ever need and the Sonic Frontiers gives a little tube warmth (running NOS Telefunken tubes) without losing detail and resolution.

The PrimaLuna would take up a lot less space in my new listening room, but it doesn't have nearly the rated output power of the Bryston. I have read many glowing reviews of the PrimaLuna, but am concerned that it would have enough power to drive the KEFs. It's not that the KEFs are grossly inefficient, but the impedance dips pretty low at lower frequencies, requiring quite a bit of current to really get the most out of them. The Bryston really brought them to life.

So, has anyone here tried driving a pair of KEF 104/2 Reference Series speakers with a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP (or similar)? If so, did the PrimaLuna get the job done, or was it underpowered for the task. My listening room is on the small side, but I do like to play my music fairly loud.

I do have other, easier to drive speakers, but I really like the KEFs, especially given the constraints of the space. They are biggish speakers with a small footprint. They are front ported and don't require a lot of space between them and the wall. I have found them ideally suited to the small space I currently have (and smaller space I will have moving forward).

If I keep my current amp/preamp, the Sonic Frontiers will need serviced, which won't be cheap. It's 27 years old now. That's another advantage of going with the much newer PrimaLuna.

Any advice or personal experience would be appreciated.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

I would never buy an amplifier loaded with 12AU7s, especially for that kind of money. You could do SO much better with a refurbished Citation V or Citation II.

Jack

 

[MCM_Fan]

I would never buy an amplifier loaded with 12AU7s, especially for that kind of money. You could do SO much better with a refurbished Citation V or Citation II.

Jack

Thanks for the reply, but aren't both of those power amplifiers? I am looking at the PrimaLuna integrated amp as a way to downsize from the separates I already have.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

Are you willing to give up sound quality because it has a volume control?

 

[Stonegarden]

I am in the process of moving and downsizing. I am currently driving a pair of restored KEF 104/2 Reference Series speakers with a Bryston 4BSST power amp and a Sonic Frontiers Line 1 tube preamp. I love this combo as the Bryston has more power than I will ever need and the Sonic Frontiers gives a little tube warmth (running NOS Telefunken tubes) without losing detail and resolution.

The PrimaLuna would take up a lot less space in my new listening room, but it doesn't have nearly the rated output power of the Bryston. I have read many glowing reviews of the PrimaLuna, but am concerned that it would have enough power to drive the KEFs. It's not that the KEFs are grossly inefficient, but the impedance dips pretty low at lower frequencies, requiring quite a bit of current to really get the most out of them. The Bryston really brought them to life.

So, has anyone here tried driving a pair of KEF 104/2 Reference Series speakers with a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP (or similar)? If so, did the PrimaLuna get the job done, or was it underpowered for the task. My listening room is on the small side, but I do like to play my music fairly loud.

I do have other, easier to drive speakers, but I really like the KEFs, especially given the constraints of the space. They are biggish speakers with a small footprint. They are front ported and don't require a lot of space between them and the wall. I have found them ideally suited to the small space I currently have (and smaller space I will have moving forward).

If I keep my current amp/preamp, the Sonic Frontiers will need serviced, which won't be cheap. It's 27 years old now. That's another advantage of going with the much newer PrimaLuna.

Any advice or personal experience would be appreciated.

I think you will be more than alright with the HP version. If I didn´t misread, those speakers are 4 ohms and they have a sensitive level of 92db, so, I think they will be properly driven even with my Dialogue Premium Integrated (non HP version) that has half the power of the HP.

 

[elpulpo88]

I can say that Primaluna amps can deal with some crappy loads. I used a dialogue premium with some Focal floorstanders that were only 86dB efficiency, and it did fine with that load. I think compared to running a vintage piece of gear and biasing tubes, you’d have a much easier transition from the Bryston to the Primaluna. They have a solid 50+ pounds of iron in them, beefy amps.

 

[MCM_Fan]

Are you willing to give up sound quality because it has a volume control?

Do you have direct experience with a PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP integrated amplifier? If not, how can you state, unequivocally, that it will sound worse than the vintage Citation units you recommend?

I need more than a "volume control". I also need mulitple inputs and a relatively small footprint.

Stereophile rated the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP as a Class A recommended component, so it must not sound too terrible.

I am also shopping for a used unit. That brings the price down to the same level, probably less, than a restored Citation V. And I'd still need a preamp for "volume control" and multiple inputs.

 

[arts]

I cannot comment on PrimaLuna equipment, as I have no interest or experience with that product.

That said, I purchased my 104/2's in the 1990's, and have run them with a very wide range of amplifiers since then. Everything from low power units right up to ridiculous monsters, and one thing was always consistent: Quality in = Quality out. So, at least from that standpoint, your wattage requirements will only be dictated by your maximum desired listening levels.

Back when I was challenged for real estate, my KEF's had to wear "hats". Each one had a Dynaco MK III sitting on top, with an old Dayton Wright preamp hiding in a bookcase

 

[TriodeLuvr]

Do you have direct experience with a PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP integrated amplifier?

I have experience with 12AU7s. There is no reason to use a tube this non-linear for voltage amplification in modern audio gear.

Stereophile rated the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP as a Class A recommended component, so it must not sound too terrible.

I stopped believing the audio rags in the late '80s. And if "not sound too terrible" is the standard being used, you and I aren't on the same page.

I am also shopping for a used unit. That brings the price down to the same level, probably less, than a restored Citation V. And I'd still need a preamp for "volume control" and multiple inputs.

Yes, this continues to be problematic for those who enjoy tube amplifiers. Integrated amps from the "golden era" of tubes can be really superb. However, moving parts wear out, and I've been frequently disappointed by my own acquisitions of vintage gear. My somewhat heretical viewpoint of sound quality is that the use a small, FET-based preamp in conjunction with a large, tube-type power amp can be more than acceptable. I find, however, that the opposite - meaning a solid state power amp - is never as transparent. So, maybe a small pre with a high quality vintage tube power amp would work for you. Alternately, a vintage, tube-type integrated might do the job. You'll just need to find one that hasn't seen too much use. That's not as difficult as it might seem, because many were put in the closet when solid state hit its heyday. The trick is patience, because you might need to return or re-sell one or two before you get a really "good" one.

One last thing about the Citations. I have always preferred pentode amplifiers to UL. They simply seem more musical and engaging. I haven't seen many of them around lately, but the pentode Citation V is typically much less expensive than the UL Citation II. This is a good thing in my opinion, and it might yet provide a solution for you.

Jadk

 

[halkaloogie]

I'm very familiar with the 104's, but I don't have any experience with that amp, but I just went through their website and poked around looking at gut shots.

It looks like a good built amp, although their description on the website is very silly to me.

I'll be a add that I have absolutely no problem with 12AU7's, and on the plus side they are abundant and so are EL34's. I don't see why you wouldn't at least try to get a hold of one and try for yourself. The wattage should be fine to push the KEF's, and all that's up in the air is how you think it sounds.

 

[Lou G]

I am not familiar with the Prima Luna but I have extensive experience with the KEF 104/2 as well as other KEF speakers. Personally, I am not a fan of tube amps with the 104/2s. You said that you love your ss Bryston amp with a tube preamp so perhaps a hybrid integrated would suit you. A friend of mine has a Rogue Pharaoh hybrid integrated with his KEFs (not the 104/2) and it is a very good sounding system. The Rogue is made in the USA and there is currently a used unit available on Audiogon. Just something else to consider.

 

[halkaloogie]

I am not familiar with the Prima Luna but I have extensive experience with the KEF 104/2 as well as other KEF speakers. Personally, I am not a fan of tube amps with the 104/2s. You said that you love your ss Bryston amp with a tube preamp so perhaps a hybrid integrated would suit you. A friend of mine has a Rogue Pharaoh hybrid integrated with his KEFs (not the 104/2) and it is a very good sounding system. The Rogue is made in the USA and there is currently a used unit available on Audiogon. Just something else to consider.

I'll second this, I have heard this combination as well, and was impressed with it.

I still liked my setup of a big mosfet power amp and separate tube preamp with 104/2`s better, but if you're not stuck on the Prima Luna, this is a good recommendation to consider.

 

[Ross6860]

I have played my 104/2 with tubes. As little as a 25 wpc SEP (Cary Audio), and also used a Jolida 302b (50 wpc). Both were acceptable. I've even had them hooked up to an HT receiver.

The Cary was well regarded, and the Jolida less so. Both had big, heavy, transformers.

I have even run my Magnepans with the aforementioned. As long as your volume requirements, and the space you need to fill fit the power available, they will work fine.

Personally, I prefer solid state for the lower noise floor and "better" bass dynamics. I sold all my tube gear a couple of years ago. Tired of the low level hisssssssss, and messing with tubes. Especially after my latest fiasco with the Schiit Freya+.

I would look at something like a Hegel H190 if I was to downsize and go to an integrated. Expensive, yes, but there are cheaper alternatives (Yamaha, Parasound, etc.).