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Pro-Ject Debut Carbon - Distorted / Sibilant- What's Wrong?

Azriel

Azriel

Active Member
Hello all,
I recently bought a used Debut Carbon with a Tube Box DS and am having some issues with it.

The turntable has the stock Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, and the Tube Box has stock tubes.

The sound is rather sibilant. S and T sounds are distorted and over-emphasized. The turntable is level, tracking force is at 1.75 grams (per the manual), the stylus is clean, anti-skate is at the second position.

Another issue I have is with the anti-skate. Even with the weight off, the turntable level, and the tracking set at zero (for calibration) the arm still has a strong return to the starting point, almost like the weight is on.

I'm playing records that I know are perfectly fine, but this thing makes them sound like garbage. Can a worn stylus cause this distortion? I'm the third owner, so there's no way of knowing how many hours are on it.

I used to have a Fluance turntable with an Ortofon 10M that sounded the same way from new. No amount of adjustment would take care of it. I finally had enough and sent the turntable down the stairs.

So that makes me a little leery of buying a new stylus for this Ortofon only to have the same sound. Is this what all Ortofons sound like? If so, I can't understand why these 2Ms are stock on so many new turntables.
 
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Can you describe the following for us:

1) how did you align the cartridge? Have you checked the wire clips from the headshell into the cartridge? are they loose?
2) how did you clean the stylus?
3) do you have a cartridge with known good stylus you can try?
4) what is the turntable seated on? (photos would be helpful!)
5) have you cleaned the RCA connections into and out of the DS phono preamp?
 
The Debut Carbon when set up correctly is a decent table. I had the Debut III and it did a fine job.
1. You need to find a way to make sure your anti skate is behaving correctly. When set up, needle should track very slowly to the inner spindle on a blank record. I have one and it does that perfectly on my table. If you don’t have a blank side of a record, find one with a very long run out. Set the needle down between the grooves. It should move very slowly to the inside.
2. Once that is correct, then you need to take a hard look at your stylus. It may be clean, but it also may be very worn.
I’m betting it is going to be your stylus.
If you have the money the 2M Blue is the best bang for the dollar cartridge for this table. IMHO
 
Azriel said:
I'm playing records that I know are perfectly fine, but this thing makes them sound like garbage. Can a worn stylus cause this distortion? I'm the third owner, so there's no way of knowing how many hours are on it.
Click to expand...
A worn stylus can absolutely do this. If the hours of runtime are unknown, then there's really only one way to truly play it safe, and that's a new stylus.

I second the advice already given in this thread before buying anything though. If the solutions offered don't fix it, then it's likely the stylus. The sibilance is the sound of mistracking.

You could also try bumping up the VTF (and anti-skate accordingly) to 1.9 or 2g to see if it helps.
 
To answer Doctorfuse's questions:

1. I used a protractor to verify the factory alignment and all looked well to me. Wires don't seem loose, but I will double check them tomorrow, when there's better light.
2. I cleaned it with a little stylus brush I've had for years. Don't know the brand, but I've never had a problem with it. I then follow up with Stylast before each play.
3. Unfortunately I don't have anything else to try at the moment. I have a Shure M97XE, but it's missing the stylus (long story)
4. The turntable is sitting on a hardwood equipment stand along with my receiver and computer, but I've had the same issue on a different stand in the previous setup.
5. I haven't cleaned the Tube Box connections, but I didn't really expect any issues, as it's only a few years old. I guess anything's possible, but it really sounds like more of a tracking issue.
 
Azriel said:
To answer Doctorfuse's questions:
I have a Shure M97XE, but it's missing the stylus (long story)/QUOTE]
Click to expand...

We've all destroyed good styli here! :(o_O:D

Sounds like everything is set up well. Time to buy a new stylus? That Shure is a good cartridge, I would probably get a replacement for that rather than the Ortofon. It would also be a good choice in case the Ortofon stylus is actually still ok (seems unlikely though); then you would have two working cartridges.

Good luck! Please post your progress (or lack thereof).
 
You might check in with some of your local audio and used LP stores to see if any have the proper tools to check the stylus. It sure sounds like a worn stylus. Setup is important but the consistent problem really points a finger at the stylus.
 
Go to the grocery store and get a Magic Eraser, in the cleaning or household department. Looks like a white sponge. It's made of melamine foam.

Cut off a small piece and set it on the turntable, then gently lower the stylus onto it. You just want the diamond to penetrate the foam, no need for any more pressure than that. lift and drop it a couple times.

Dollar to a donut you have some crap on the stylus that is preventing it tracking properly. The Magic Eraser is hard enough to scrape nearly any reasonable gunk off while soft enough to do no damage at all to the diamond. DO NOT pull it forward or push it back to "clean" the diamond, it's tear resistant enough to pull the cantilever clean out of the suspension, or worse dislodge the diamond from the cantilever. Unlikely, perhaps, but possible and not a good idea.

Chances are this will fix you right up, certainly did for the mess my buddy made of a stylus -- dog hair, too much grunge from used records, and too much "cleaning spray" left a sticky mess. Couple quick dabs with the magic eraser and it was like new. Still gave him a different table, he was having trouble with the manual cuing.
 
Azriel said:
I have a Shure M97XE
Click to expand...
You're in luck - JICO just came out with a nude elliptical stylus for the M97XE (which would be a little more $ than a replacement 2M Red stylus, but cheaper than upgrading to the Blue). And there's also the SAS if you feel like taking it to it's highest performance.

Either option is better than another 2M Red stylus IMO. I like the 2M Blue myself, but I'd venture to say the nude elliptical M97XE stylus will put the Shure at least on the same level as the 2M Blue, if not better - and for less money (no experience w/the M97xe, but I have the old Type III, which kills both the Red and Blue w/just an elliptical stylus IMO).
 
Azriel said:
I'm the third owner, so there's no way of knowing how many hours are on it.
Click to expand...

Dollars to donuts the stylus is shot. The Debut Carbon with an Ortofon Red goes back at least to 2018, so if the previous owners played a fair number of records, you could easily be at end of life for the stylus.

I treat any used cartridge as if it's worn out until proven otherwise.
 
I still suspect the table is not level. I would float the arm at 0 grams and then have anti skate set to 0, or have the weight off. If the arm moves then the table is not level of the arm wires are twisting and putting force on the arm.

I'd this is occuring while playing I would say tracking weight is too light, stylus is dirty, or the arm cue platform is lightly touching the arm.
 
Thanks for all the advice everyone. I wanted to respond to Mister Pig's post. This is exactly what I was talking about. With the turntable level, weight off, and the tracking at zero, the arm still moves toward the arm holder. I had to put cassette tape cases under each of the right feet before it would stop moving. That's how off it is.

With the turntable sitting way cock-eyed, the arm would stay wherever I put it. So, the question is, what's causing all this pull on the arm? Could the arm mounting platform somehow shift in the plinth? Nothing looked obviously off to me, though I suspect something small might not be immediately visible.
 
Azriel said:
Thanks for all the advice everyone. I wanted to respond to Mister Pig's post. This is exactly what I was talking about. With the turntable level, weight off, and the tracking at zero, the arm still moves toward the arm holder. I had to put cassette tape cases under each of the right feet before it would stop moving. That's how off it is.

With the turntable sitting way cock-eyed, the arm would stay wherever I put it. So, the question is, what's causing all this pull on the arm? Could the arm mounting platform somehow shift in the plinth? Nothing looked obviously off to me, though I suspect something small might not be immediately visible.
Click to expand...

Well if you put a bubble level on the plinth and it's truly centered then the next suspect is the internal wiring of the arm. It has a twist or has been pulled on in a way that is creating tension. Perhaps someone resoldered cartridge tabs and pulled the wire tight trying to get a bit of extra length. That would be my next area of investigation if a bubble level on the plinth confirms it is indeed level.
 
Azriel said:
Hello all,
I recently bought a used Debut Carbon with a Tube Box DS and am having some issues with it.

The turntable has the stock Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, and the Tube Box has stock tubes.

The sound is rather sibilant. S and T sounds are distorted and over-emphasized. The turntable is level, tracking force is at 1.75 grams (per the manual), the stylus is clean, anti-skate is at the second position.

Another issue I have is with the anti-skate. Even with the weight off, the turntable level, and the tracking set at zero (for calibration) the arm still has a strong return to the starting point, almost like the weight is on.

I'm playing records that I know are perfectly fine, but this thing makes them sound like garbage. Can a worn stylus cause this distortion? I'm the third owner, so there's no way of knowing how many hours are on it.

I used to have a Fluance turntable with an Ortofon 10M that sounded the same way from new. No amount of adjustment would take care of it. I finally had enough and sent the turntable down the stairs.

So that makes me a little leery of buying a new stylus for this Ortofon only to have the same sound. Is this what all Ortofons sound like? If so, I can't understand why these 2Ms are stock on so many new turntables.
Click to expand...


Either go back and try to re-zero the tonearm or buy a digital scale. Sound like you are not running 1.75 grams of vertical tracking force, but something much less.

https://www.amazon.com/Professional...al+scale+for+turntables&qid=1634128122&sr=8-2
 
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Yup, I would try setting higher VTF just temporarily to see if things improve. If so get a separate scale and see if the 1.75 g you set on the TT equals the numbers on the scale.
 
The 2M Red is a piece of crap, one of the nastiest and most sibilant cartridges I have ever heard. There's a good chance that is the source of your sibilance problem. Unfortunately you'll have to spend more on a cartridge with a nude advanced profile to get rid of the sibilance and inner groove distortion. If you want an Ortofon, that means jumping up to the 2M Bronze or Black, or the OM30 or OM40.
 
Azriel said:
If so, I can't understand why these 2Ms are stock on so many new turntables.
Click to expand...

When a TT manufacturer specs those on a huge run of TTs they get a sweet deal from Ortofon. They are not paying anywhere near retail for those cartridges, and are likely paying much less than a local audio dealer would at wholesale. In general, pre-installed cartridges on many TTs are just starter cartridges to get you going.
 
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