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Project "Freebie" Begins

dc270

Now Off the Reservation
Project Freebie

A good friend of mine is always on he look out for projects for me. He found a good one the other day while I was out of town. On our local Craig’s List a person had listed some speakers he and some buddies had built in their college days. He had them listed for some time to sell with no results so he (or his wife) finally got desperate and offered them for FREE!

Most people would probably think more than twice about buying or even accepting custom built speakers, especially those from an old college project. These were diamonds in the rough however! A lot of thought and build quality went into them. Here is what I know about them thus far:

HEAVY, 116 lbs per cab (5.5 cu ft net volume)
15” CTS driver, pleated surrounds
Dual 4” CTS mid drivers
Dual Phenolic CTS tweeters
Custom built/ wound networks
Not mirror imaged
36 Threaded ¼” bolts holding backs on

The networks had these components:
3.5mh & 32uF = woofer circuit
106uf, 1.75mh,10.4uF= mid circuit
.167mh, 10.3uF, & .170mh= tweeter circuit

Polarized caps were used and wired in parallel to acquire their respective values.

The sound of these proved to be deceptively quite good! The bass was tight & well controlled. The woofers were well broke in. The dual mids were accurate and well blended into the woofer/ tweeters. The offset firing tweeters sounded very good with great dispersion from the angled platforms. These were quite efficient needing only ½ watt to get them to room filling capability! The networks, while hand built, were apparently well thought out and applied. The overall balance was good with equal competition between drivers. The construction was first rate with dozens of T-nuts used, wood screws with large cleats and quality MDF with thick Formica wood veneer.

On the other hand the 4” mids seemed a bit beaming due to their recessed placement behind the thick baffle. The Phenolic tweeters are pretty reliable and usually sound good. In their twisted array here they were best used. They can be somewhat directional when used in singles and can sound harsh at high power levels. The woofers look to be of the better made stamped steel frame types with a large square magnet for control. I had seen this woofer type used in Klipsch, Speakerlab and other places. It is a well made CTS woofer

My plan for these is to first mirror image them. The will give them better imaging & symmetry for starters. My second thought is to replace the Phenolics with soft dome types for improved dispersion, using the same offset firing scheme. My next improvement is to measure the hand wound inductors and replace with Erse low loss inductors and then replace the caps with polys on the high end and new electrolytics on the lower end. The cabs need nothing to improve them but perhaps some matting/ padding on the baffle for diffusion purposes. The grill covers will get new material as well. These have simple screw terminal that need a desperate binding post upgrade too.

The cab size reminds me a lot of Klipsch Cornwalls, as does the bass output. With some work I expect the mid & high end to sound quite good but the networks will need rebuilding and some testing done. Perhaps mounting the mids drivers on the baffle fave might help as well

Any thoughts, comments, suggestion on my upcoming project? A special thanks to "Gus JR" for picking up the speaker and bringing them over to me.

Thanks folks- llok forward to some input here.
DC
 

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Now that is a very cool project at the right price!

May I make a recommendation? I agree that it looks like someone new what they were doing when they designed these (to the days best practice.) How about recapping, adding some polyfil and see what they sound like in as-new condition?

After that, let the mods fly! :thmbsp:
 
I can see they used PMRLT (Pretty Much Random Layer Technology) inductors.

:D

Keep us posted and good luck!

az
 
Wow!! Looks like somebody really knew what they were doing when they built those!!

Details like all the t-nuts and machine screws instead of regular screws, recessing the screw heads on the back make it look like someone really took their time to build a quality product.

Enjoy!! :banana:
 
Cool, can't beat free.

I'd be tempted to move the drivers to front mount (if simple) to deal with "beaming".

Next, I'd throw a few pillows in them to get some damping in the cab (after I got the screw gun charged up....MAN that is a lot of screws in the back).

After those cheap/easy tweaks, I go after the X-over.

Mirroring is good.
 
OK now- got some good input so far! I have already pulled the networks and checked them xover. I am not real sure it was ideally set up for the 4.3 dcr ohms on the mids and the 3.4 dcr ohms set up for the tweets. I will check that out further. I will probably include a Zobel circuit on the woofers as well.

I have pulled all the drivers off one baffle and about half the screws that hold the baffle together. There is plenty more there to do! When I reassemble I think one 2" x 2" brace in the baffle center, front to back will add some final bracing.

Back to work- got some drivers to measure later on so I can anticipate building an improved networks. Appreciate the input & ideas guys- keep them coming.
DC
 
Those are great woofers, they look just like the ones Erath used in the LWE speakers in the early 70s. Massive. I have a set of LWE II's awaiting restoration that each have two of them. :D

Cool project, do keep us posted!
 
Thanks for the infor Tox- I will be posting the specs I measure on these shortly! You are correct- they do look pretty good, well built.
DC
 
Here is what the CTS woofer, 15w54c model, now measures at after being WELL broke in!!

RE 8.34
FS 14.8
QT .1635
QE .171
QM 3.568
LE 3.832
MMS 78.2 gr
VAS 49.2 cu ft
SPL 96 db/1w/1m
Sample ohms plot points, 8.3ohm @ 100hx, 20 ohms @ 500hz, 25 ohm @ 1khz, 40 ohms @ 2khz
The plot point of the dual 4" CTS drivers is 4.3 ohms @ 500 hz, 5 ohms @ 2khz, 7 ohms at 5khz and 9 ohms at 7khz

My Eminence speaker designer sez it would have a low end responce of 27 in its 5.5 cu ft box, which seams pretty respectable.

I am still digging out burried wood scres to pull the baffle and reverse it. These have the potential to once again become some very nice sounding & powerful speakers!

I did hear back from the original owner in an email yesterday. He mentioned these were his final grade project at West Virginia Technical back in 1974! They were designed from a Fortran program, a tone generator and a good set of young ears. These speakers were a set of 3 types, his being the mid size, that him and his class mates designed. When he get back into town he plans to forward me thesis paper on these. Should be interesting!
DC
 
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I'd try and group the drivers a bit closer together, so they aren't spread out all over the baffle. Also mounting the drivers on the face of the baffle rather than the rear will help quite a bit. And to further simplify things - get rid of that angle on the tweeters. It'll probably sound better too once you angle them so they point at your listening position.

I mean, if you're ready to make mirrored baffles you can probably put up with the extra work of repositioning the drivers too :)
 
RE 8.34
FS 14.8
QT .1635
QE .171
QM 3.568
LE 3.832
MMS 78.2 gr
VAS 49.2 cu ft
SPL 96 db/1w/1m
Sample ohms plot points, 8.3ohm @ 100hx, 20 ohms @ 500hz, 25 ohm @ 1khz, 40 ohms @ 2khz
The plot point of the dual 4" CTS drivers is 4.3 ohms @ 500 hz, 5 ohms @ 2khz, 7 ohms at 5khz and 9 ohms at 7khz

Wow, that's a low Fs if I've ever seen one! I bet the motor is quite strong to yield such a low Qts, do you have the calculated BL spec for it?

It quite similar to the 15" CTS woofer used in the Karlson X15 system. Klipsch also used one of these. I like the huge square magnet.

az
 
Wow, that's a low Fs if I've ever seen one! I bet the motor is quite strong to yield such a low Qts, do you have the calculated BL spec for it?

It quite similar to the 15" CTS woofer used in the Karlson X15 system. Klipsch also used one of these. I like the huge square magnet.

az

Yes, the BL was interpolated to be 19.83 Tm. CTS made a great woofer at one time- little wonder Klipsch used them!
DC
 
Yes, the BL was interpolated to be 19.83 Tm. CTS made a great woofer at one time- little wonder Klipsch used them!
DC

That is some serious magnet-muscle! Other than sheer magnet size, I guess the size of the magnetic gap the voice-coil rides into has a lot to do with it as well (smaller in this case).

And Vas=49.2cu.ft (~1400 liters) has to be the silliest Vas I've seen.

az
 
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A little more work completed. Got the baffle flipped around and the tweeter cups installed. Now the baffles are mirror imaged. I was not easy to pull the baffle as they were put in NEVER to be pulled!! Just had to get a bigger hammer...........uggg

I am very tempted qo pull the Phenolivs and install the domes tweeters I enclosed a pic of- I have 8 of these so might as well use them I figure. They sound very good and just might compliment this design.

What do you think at this point- go ahead and flush mount the two mids and maybe even the woofer? What ever I do I will have to do the same for the other baffle. I do not want to totally rebuild the baffles....at least not yet!
DC
 

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Those dome tweeters are horrible, send them to me for disposal.

They look a lot like the ones in the big AR9's.
 
Project "Freebie" Work Update

A bit more work has been done to the front baffles. The one baffle has been mirror imaged and now the mid & tweeters wells have been radius relief cut to help eliminate edge diffraction issues. This should go a long way to improve their imaging and sound depth. I think mounting the woofer on the baffle front will help time align it closer to the recessed mids & tweeters.

Next will come a speckle black paint, then mount the mid box, mount the drivers then mount the whole baffle to the box. Afdter that then I will pull the drivers from the other box, radious the cut outs and do the same as I did for this baffle. The last thing to do is to recalculate the crossover and build them up. Iam tempted to re-set the xover in the 500hz & 5khz range. Any thoughts on crossover points out there? The project is looking unique with a lot of promise for sound improvements. I guess these will be my version of the infamous Cerwin Vega D9's as the cab size is close, they have the double mids but will have a unique dual tweeter set up!

Stay tuned- more to come. Between other (paying) projects and the Texas heat completion time is not set. I could take donations for a Garage AC system but somehow do not hold much hope for that happening- after all the presidential candidates are sucking up all the excess money out there...damn.

Later
DC
 

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I would be tempted to do a MTM setup using the dome tweet. Mount all drivers on the face and put some sort of acoustic blanket on the baffle board. Brace the cabs.
 
I would be tempted to do a MTM setup using the dome tweet. Mount all drivers on the face and put some sort of acoustic blanket on the baffle board. Brace the cabs.

Good call there Kelly. At this particular time I want to keep the baffle in its original configuration- short of the mirror imaging thing. However I DO like your suggstion of an acoustic blanket- AKA AR treatment! Let me look into that posiblility as being something well worth while. Thanks for the idea!!!
DC
 
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