QLS-1 vs MG-III....titanic showdown (just ask my lower back)

[tomlinmgt]

[/IMG]

Just brought these Maggies home Saturday morning (finally...been lookin' a long damn time) but didn't get a chance to listen to them til last night. Here they are fixing to step up to the plate....which you can see the QLS-1's are occupying. After an hour of listening to the MG-III's here are a few immediate observations...I am more impressed than I expected, understand what the fuss over the true ribbon equipped Maggies is all about, and do not understand why so many insist the bass on Maggies is weak. Ok, well, weak if you want to pop the trim off the walls. But at reasonable volumes and with music that isn't mixed with a hot bottom end (pardon me a moment for that visual.........) I think the LF response is fantastic. Maybe I got lucky with my room's acoustics, IDK....point is, I'm not just ok with the bass comin' from these Maggies, I flat out think it sounds great and you could've easily told me there were subs in the room and I would've believed you.

The list of strengths for both of these designs is a long one. HUGE and multidimensional soundstage, precise imaging, musical and warm tonality, dramatic and physical dynamics right up through the mid-range, quick transient response....the list goes on. There are sonic weaknesses, of course.....the QLS's can't hide their boxy nature next to the Maggies, the Maggies start to protest when pushed up to levels approaching 90db (where the QLS's just ask for more), and both designs have a fairly narrow "ultra" sweet spot, that being they both sound extremely good about two feet left or right of dead center listening position but dead center is, well, "ultra" sweet.

So, again, with only about an hour of listening time with the MG-III's I'm not prepared to go into any great detail about their charms and otherwise. However, I have many dozens of hours with my MMG's so I kind of know what to listen for wrt the weaknesses I've identified with planar dipoles. The QLS-1's were a BIG step for me in terms of loudspeaker performance. I might be prepared to say the MG-III's are another step....ok, half step. But at this level, that's pretty significant.

- Michael

 

[CarnahanBB]

Damn! Proving once again we all 'hear' a bit differently. I had a pair of MG-IIIAs hooked up for a day before I moved them to the basement. Wasn't close for me. Maybe I need to drag them back out? I was expecting to be blown away with the mids/highs so maybe it was a case of high expectations?

 

[Blue Shadow]

Saw your post on the asylum about the IIIs. Looks like you will be able to wring out the best from them and give us an update.

I just moved the 2.5/Rs out of the spot and put the Time Windows back since I now have stands for the TWs. When they go the IIIas are coming back. I like em all and the TW like the ∞ has the power. The Magneplanars do other things better.

Sure is fun to play with new stuff.

 

[RickeyM]

From reading my posts, I guess you know I love Maggies. It's going to be interesting to hear your comparison.
The ribbon tweeters in my MG2.5R's are what seduced me away from my Quasi-Gunned MMG's. In fact hearing those ribbons sing in stock form, I just knew they'd sound better with upgraded x-over parts and I was right.
Don't shoot me, but again I'm gonna recommend wood frames. The closest analogy I can give is like the description some people describe when adding damping material to the baskets of woofers or mids. It clears up the sound. It does not color it.
I agree with you on the bass issue tho'. Full size Maggies do dig down into the bass region more than you'd think. My 2.5's have suprised me a few times and I believe the woofer panels on the MG-III's are even a bit bigger :thmbsp:

 

[tomlinmgt]

Damn! Proving once again we all 'hear' a bit differently. I had a pair of MG-IIIAs hooked up for a day before I moved them to the basement. Wasn't close for me. Maybe I need to drag them back out? I was expecting to be blown away with the mids/highs so maybe it was a case of high expectations?

Ryan, you've been on my mind from the moment I decided to get this pair. I thought surely I'd be disappointed in the III's based on your experience with your IIIa's after QLS-1's. I'm gonna tell you what I think....I think the differences we're hearing are probably the result of different room/speaker interaction. My room is heavily treated and I can switch between diffusion or absorption behind each panel, reflection, absorption, or diffusion on sidewalls, and diffusion or absorption behind me. I wouldn't give up on your IIIa's. There is a TON of potential there. I'm very, very impressed with mine and even more excited about all the upgrades that can be performed on them. I'm fixing to go nuts on these.

- Michael

 

[tomlinmgt]

From reading my posts, I guess you know I love Maggies. It's going to be interesting to hear your comparison.
The ribbon tweeters in my MG2.5R's are what seduced me away from my Quasi-Gunned MMG's. In fact hearing those ribbons sing in stock form, I just knew they'd sound better with upgraded x-over parts and I was right.
Don't shoot me, but again I'm gonna recommend wood frames. The closest analogy I can give is like the description some people describe when adding damping material to the baskets of woofers or mids. It clears up the sound. It does not color it.
I agree with you on the bass issue tho'. Full size Maggies do dig down into the bass region more than you'd think. My 2.5's have suprised me a few times and I believe the woofer panels on the MG-III's are even a bit bigger :thmbsp:

Well Ricky, I seem to recall somewhere along the way you said something to me that convinced me I needed to shell the idea of modding my MMG's and step up to ribbons and mod those instead. Well, here I am and chompin' at the bit to hot rod the III's. I'm picking up an Ashly 3-way active xover this weekend...so my plan is to frame the panels and actively tri-amp with a Soundcraftsmen MA5002 on the bass panel, a second 5002 on the mid panel, and tubes on the ribbons in the form of a modded ST-70. Did you frame your 2.5's?

-Michael

 

[canuckaudiog]

I love living vicariously through your speaker experiences. You've got a hell of a set-up, that's what I hope to own one day.

 

[tomlinmgt]

^^^

Well thanks, man. I appreciate the compliment. I'm just a guy who's probably a little too into this stuff and has been fortunate enough to have a lot of great gear cross my path and great people around (this most certainly includes everyone here on AK) to help me along.

Spent a little time playing with placement and toe-in with the Maggies last night. The bigger Maggies really respond favorably when you approach and find ideal placement as compared to the smaller models. I started out with each speaker about three feet in front of the diffusion panels I have positioned behind each speaker (and the diffusion panels are a little over a foot from the front wall) but tried them at two feet away and probably lost about 5 db output across the entire bandwidth.....sound stage dimensionality suffered as well. Moving them back to three feet away from the diffusion panels magically brought the volume back up and reestablished the nicely layered sound stage. Next I adjusted toe-in from panels firing over each shoulder to panels directly on axis and ribbons firing right at me. Much to my surprise this actually made the sound stage sound a bit more natural with imaging that seemed to offer a bigger footprint for each player but still was very coherently defined in the sound stage. Many times when I toe speakers in this aggressively I lose or weaken presentation outboard of the speakers but such was not the case with the -III's. It was a nicely balanced sound stage from wall to wall with the primary instruments being right within the boundaries of and properly located on a "virtual" stage.

Of course, the more I listen to the Maggies the more shortcomings I hear. On a few recordings the pronunciation of the letter "S" is a little hissy and bass notes below probably 100 hz or so can get a little distorted if I have the volume up to around 85 db. I think the QLS-1's offer up percussion in a way that is a bit more sharp and perhaps as as a result of that a bit more physical. I went ahead and threw the subs into the mix with a roll off around 60 hz and pulled the bass on the tone control back to flat (I had just a touch of boost dialed in because of room response) and this bolstered the very bottom nicely with some additional slam and punch and cleaned up the hint of distortion I detected below 100 hz....especially at higher volumes. However, the bass seemed to lose some tonality with the subs and sounded a bit less natural. With the proper mods LF response and strength is supposed to improve significantly. I'm looking forward to hearing already great bass get better. And these ribbons wear out with age so I should probably consider replacing these. So, no doubt, there's room for improvement here but mighty damn impressive as they sit and clearly begging to be modded.

- Michael

 

[CarnahanBB]

Ryan, you've been on my mind from the moment I decided to get this pair. I thought surely I'd be disappointed in the III's based on your experience with your IIIa's after QLS-1's. I'm gonna tell you what I think....I think the differences we're hearing are probably the result of different room/speaker interaction. My room is heavily treated and I can switch between diffusion or absorption behind each panel, reflection, absorption, or diffusion on sidewalls, and diffusion or absorption behind me. I wouldn't give up on your IIIa's. There is a TON of potential there. I'm very, very impressed with mine and even more excited about all the upgrades that can be performed on them. I'm fixing to go nuts on these.

- Michael

HaHa! I was so surprised when I saw your post! Maybe I'll have to drag mine back up? Your post makes me feel like perhaps I was missing something. I've got Aragon Palladiums now versus Adcom 565s then. The Aragons run Class A for quite a while so maybe that would help the MG-IIIAs? I know mine were re-glued and the tweeters are relatively new. Either way, I always say to each his own when it comes to an individual's audio journey! C'est la vie!

 

[kfa888]

I got MGII's early on in this audio journey and it kinda spoiled me to other speakers. The mid range detail and depth of sound-stage can make them so life like at times I am sure Diana Krall was whispering in my ear. I am using them in my bedroom system as HT 2ch and they work fantastic for that as well.

 

[Blue Shadow]

One of the strengths of the Magneplanars I have is their ability to sound so lifelike from another room. When one is not in the same room, these are the only speakers I have used that sound like real people are in the other room performing.

 

[tomlinmgt]

One of the strengths of the Magneplanars I have is their ability to sound so lifelike from another room. When one is not in the same room, these are the only speakers I have used that sound like real people are in the other room performing.

And just to be clear, folks, they sound lifelike when you're in the same room as well. :yes:

- Michael

 

[tomlinmgt]

HaHa! I was so surprised when I saw your post! Maybe I'll have to drag mine back up? Your post makes me feel like perhaps I was missing something. I've got Aragon Palladiums now versus Adcom 565s then. The Aragons run Class A for quite a while so maybe that would help the MG-IIIAs? I know mine were re-glued and the tweeters are relatively new. Either way, I always say to each his own when it comes to an individual's audio journey! C'est la vie!

You mean to tell me you never tried your IIIa's with the Aragon monoblocks? Good Lord, Ryan. That's like sayin' you wrote off your Goodyear VR Gatorback equipped IROC-Z's handling capabilities when you had a set of race compound Hoosiers sittin' there mounted on wheels and ready to go. :nono:

Alright, so I'm not guaranteeing the kind of improvement you'd get from that upgrade but seriously....I'm positive you are aware of how revealing Maggies are of upstream gear. In my experience probably more so than the QLS-1's. And you heard how much better the Q's sounded with the Aragons. I'll be awaiting your updated review of your IIIA's. :yes:

- Michael

 

[CarnahanBB]

You mean to tell me you never tried your IIIa's with the Aragon monoblocks? Good Lord, Ryan. That's like sayin' you wrote off your Goodyear VR Gatorback equipped IROC-Z's handling capabilities when you had a set of race compound Hoosiers sittin' there mounted on wheels and ready to go. :nono:

Alright, so I'm not guaranteeing the kind of improvement you'd get from that upgrade but seriously....I'm positive you are aware of how revealing Maggies are of upstream gear. In my experience probably more so than the QLS-1's. And you heard how much better the Q's sounded with the Aragons. I'll be awaiting your updated review of your IIIA's. :yes:

- Michael

HaHa! Great analogy and very fair point! I guess I now Have a project in mind for this weekend...the wife will be in NYC anyways!

 

[tomlinmgt]

So it's been a week now with the big Maggies and I have about a dozen hours of listening time with them. Friday night I had a chance to do a back to back comparo against the QLS-1s' with one of my best friends and fellow audio enthusiast. First we listened to the Infinities for about an hour then put the -III's in. My friend was, as usual, very impressed with the Infinites and continually commented on how the bass response was the most satisfying he'd ever heard. Solid, musical, punchy, robust, physical...these were the adjectives he kept using and I've certainly used them myself in my own observations. Of course, he marveled at the soundstage, imaging, dynamics and scale of the Infinites as well as the tonality of instruments and vocals.

When we pulled the Infinities and put in the Maggies right off the bat I could tell by his body language he was hearing something quite unexpected. After the first song he said "I don't know how something comes along for $400 and so easily convinces me I need to find a pair of these speakers even if I have to pay twice as much". My comment was they just sound more natural than the Infinites (cursed boxiness) with little to no compromise in dynamics and as unbelievable as it seems the presentation is even bigger and more dimensional. He listened to them for several more songs and agreed, adding he felt there was better cohesiveness from the bottom to the top of bandwidth. He was also very surprised at the LF reponse of the Maggies and felt the mid bass more musical and I totally agreed. I set up the subs and put in a tune we both know to be fairly bass heavy and started the song without turning on the plate amps to the subs without him knowing. His comment was the subs really integrated very well with the Maggies at which point I told him the subs were off. He didn't believe me. I couldn't help but laugh. Only thing we couldn't do with the Maggies that the Infinities could handle with no fuss was push them to volumes in excess of 90db before we started to hear some panel slap. Another interesting discovery we made was what a difference the right pre can make. I've been using an Onkyo P-306RS Integra recently instead of the Hafler he's used to hearing...a pre that I let him use in his system for a while and was very, very much to his liking. He suggested we try the Hafler and after we subbed it for the Onkyo there was an immediate deficiency of musicality, ambiance, and clarity with the Maggies. There was also bass panel slap occuring at lower volumes than with the Onkyo.

At $400-800 on the used market the Magnepan MG-III and IIIa's have to be one of the best deals in used audio provided you have the right room and upstream gear and don't need ear splitting volume capability. Period.

- Michael

 

[Blue Shadow]

Now that is what I believe and the reason I have the IIIa and 2.5/R. Most of what I like does not need slam so the realistic sound of the Magneplanar ribbon-tweetered speakers is something I enjoy.

There has been a huge advancement in speaker technology since the QLS was a top model. I'm sure some work with the crossover and woofer could bring significant improvement but would it be worth the effort when you can be putting that effort into making the Magneplanars even better.

Thanks for the review and the additional comments.

 

[dc270]

I cannot help but think the QLS's would be a real competitor if they werte tri amped- even the best passive networks are such a trade off its gotta hurt!

You take a large, well designed, boxless pannel of ribbon wire you will always get something near spectacular like your appear to be. Years back I had MMG 1s's and was mildly impressed, then I had rebuilt SMG's with 10" peerless XLS under each and was completely impressed- then the pannels get bigger & better!

There is a place for typical basket drivers- but with the march of technology in favor of the ribbon, planar speakers like these, the sonic line of purity is becoming less blurred everyday! Great read here guys!
DC

 

[Blue Shadow]

I cannot help but think the QLS's would be a real competitor if they werte tri amped- even the best passive networks are such a trade off its gotta hurt!

DC

Well if you have the tri-amp abilities, do the same to the Magnepans. Jim, ehoove, has done this and added some subs and other speaekr upgrades. He is fine tuning the installation in his new listening area.


The IIIas have external crossovers for the bass/midrange+tweeter split because the parts are too big to fit in the cabinet. The tweeter/midrange split is inside the speaker cloth.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Well if you have the tri-amp abilities, do the same to the Magnepans. Jim, ehoove, has done this and added some subs and other speaekr upgrades. He is fine tuning the installation in his new listening area.


The IIIas have external crossovers for the bass/midrange+tweeter split because the parts are too big to fit in the cabinet. The tweeter/midrange split is inside the speaker cloth.

Just picked up an Ashly XR2001 active crossover yesterday. So with that I'll have one Soundcraftsmen MA5002 for the bass panel, one MA5002 for the mid-panel, and a modded ST-70 for the ribbons (as I hear tubes/ribbons is magical) as well as a tube pre and tube DAC upstream. I'm on it! :yes:

- Michael

 

[trusound]

So it's been a week now with the big Maggies and I have about a dozen hours of listening time with them. Friday night I had a chance to do a back to back comparo against the QLS-1s' with one of my best friends and fellow audio enthusiast. First we listened to the Infinities for about an hour then put the -III's in. My friend was, as usual, very impressed with the Infinites and continually commented on how the bass response was the most satisfying he'd ever heard. Solid, musical, punchy, robust, physical...these were the adjectives he kept using and I've certainly used them myself in my own observations. Of course, he marveled at the soundstage, imaging, dynamics and scale of the Infinites as well as the tonality of instruments and vocals.

When we pulled the Infinities and put in the Maggies right off the bat I could tell by his body language he was hearing something quite unexpected. After the first song he said "I don't know how something comes along for $400 and so easily convinces me I need to find a pair of these speakers even if I have to pay twice as much". My comment was they just sound more natural than the Infinites (cursed boxiness) with little to no compromise in dynamics and as unbelievable as it seems the presentation is even bigger and more dimensional. He listened to them for several more songs and agreed, adding he felt there was better cohesiveness from the bottom to the top of bandwidth. He was also very surprised at the LF reponse of the Maggies and felt the mid bass more musical and I totally agreed. I set up the subs and put in a tune we both know to be fairly bass heavy and started the song without turning on the plate amps to the subs without him knowing. His comment was the subs really integrated very well with the Maggies at which point I told him the subs were off. He didn't believe me. I couldn't help but laugh. Only thing we couldn't do with the Maggies that the Infinities could handle with no fuss was push them to volumes in excess of 90db before we started to hear some panel slap. Another interesting discovery we made was what a difference the right pre can make. I've been using an Onkyo P-306RS Integra recently instead of the Hafler he's used to hearing...a pre that I let him use in his system for a while and was very, very much to his liking. He suggested we try the Hafler and after we subbed it for the Onkyo there was an immediate deficiency of musicality, ambiance, and clarity with the Maggies. There was also bass panel slap occuring at lower volumes than with the Onkyo.

At $400-800 on the used market the Magnepan MG-III and IIIa's have to be one of the best deals in used audio provided you have the right room and upstream gear and don't need ear splitting volume capability. Period.

- Michael

Here another glass of Kool-Aid, enjoy and keep drinking.