Question about a phono stage ?

[Vladimir1970]

Question about a phono stage ( phono preamp ) ?

Good day !
Have a system: the player CEC 930 ST, receiver Kenwood KR-4070 and receiver Saba 9241 ( Cartridges Shure m91ed , Grado ZF3E+ and Empire 2000E/III .
Do I need a separate phono stage or built into the receiver is quite good ?

 

[kermit z]

I would think either receiver would be good. That Saba looks to be pretty cool

 

[Vladimir1970]

I would think either receiver would be good. That Saba looks to be pretty cool

I like the sound of the receiver's phono
, but lately wonder, what if I lost a lot in terms of sound quality
and can cost to buy a separate phono ?
Only now is a good phono stage is very expensive , maybe I should seek out the vintage is not new ?

 

[rolltide]

What I would do is try something like the ART DJ Pre ($50, hundreds of pages of threads on AK reviewing it), compare it to your built-in phono stages, and return it if you don't feel the difference is tangible.

I find when I run lower cost MM cartridges the built-in phono stage is just fine -- I've used external stages I felt sounded a tad better, but at least in my experiences the built-ins had a lower noise floor.

I don't think its as simple as "cartridges below X amount of money don't really benefit from expensive phono stages", but I also don't think that statement is completely false either.

 

[kermit z]

I guess it depends on your budget. As stated you can find a lower cost pre that would be good. Better than the built in? probably, but only you can tell. Now, get into higher priced phono's and you really would benefit from a higher end cartridge

 

[SupaWales]

I've found that most integrated amps' built in phono stages are not very good.

But I'm comparing against a Naim NAC-62 preamp and a home made PSU which is fitted with MM cards.. NA321's I think.

The most obvious difference is how far down the bass goes. The Naim seems to have an extra octave or 2 compared to most integrated amps' phono stages.

I've just acquired a Yamaha AX-550 to use as a power amp and despite having excellent phono stage specs it's got no bass compared to the Naim.
This is with a variety of cartrdiges.. everything from an AT-95e to a Shure V15 II and a Goldring G1012

I found the same with a Yamaha AX-596 as well.

Of course there are bound to be some exceptions.
Some of the Sansui integrated amps have excellent phono stages.. one is the AU-G30x

 

[GPJeff]

I'd suggest the Whest PS.30RDT Special Edition Phonostage if you're on a budget. It produces the blackest background, pulls the most detail, and lifts 1000 veils and skirts. :0

No affiliation - http://www.needledoctor.com/Whest-PS-30RDT-Special-Edition-Phonostage?sc=2&category=36638

 

[shelly_d]

I like the sound of the receiver's phono, but lately wonder, what if I lost a lot in terms of sound quality
and can cost to buy a separate phono ?
Only now is a good phono stage is very expensive , maybe I should seek out the vintage is not new ?

the highlighted section may be answering your own question.

Shelly_D

 

[Vladimir1970]

2 ) the highlighted section may be answering your own question.

Shelly_D

I thank everyone who responded to!

2 ) Logical, but I often hear that independent fonokorrektor usually better built.
So I wondered how well I realized the possibility of my stereo system ?


P/s I occasionally meet in the sale on the secondary market are relatively inexpensive vintage models, for example : Shure Brothers Stereo Preamp M64-2E
Someone can say about this model or another in the budget to $ 300 ?

 

[datafone]

I've found that most integrated amps' built in phono stages are not very good.

But I'm comparing against a Naim NAC-62 preamp and a home made PSU which is fitted with MM cards.. NA321's I think.

The most obvious difference is how far down the bass goes. The Naim seems to have an extra octave or 2 compared to most integrated amps' phono stages.

I've just acquired a Yamaha AX-550 to use as a power amp and despite having excellent phono stage specs it's got no bass compared to the Naim.
This is with a variety of cartrdiges.. everything from an AT-95e to a Shure V15 II and a Goldring G1012

I found the same with a Yamaha AX-596 as well.

Of course there are bound to be some exceptions.
Some of the Sansui integrated amps have excellent phono stages.. one is the AU-G30x

This is interesting

As for convenience for the moment as have just moved into a new place, I'm running the little bro', a AX-450. I had heard the phono stage was decent so hooked the 838 to the Yamaha's phono input.........I thought "OK, it's pretty detailed and quiet, but noticed something was missing......put my BHL stage using good parts in and fed into the AUX of the Yamaha, result is no contest, better on every level....much more natural tonally, richer with more body and so much more nuances across the spectrum and better staging :thmbsp:
Even quieter (I run off batteries) I have about $700 invested in the BHL build.

I agree with your comment on the Sansui, while I have not heard that one, the ones I have heard in various Sansui's are a step above the other brands I have heard from that era.

 

[Vladimir1970]

I'd suggest the Whest PS.30RDT Special Edition Phonostage if you're on a budget. It produces the blackest background, pulls the most detail, and lifts 1000 veils and skirts. :0

Thanks for the recommendation and the link!
It is expensive for my budget, I'd repelled by the 150-300 $ , and buying vintage on the secondary market.

 

[mmr24]

How are your speakers? If they need to be upgraded, that maybe the next logical step before the phono preamp.

Another way to upgrade your phono stage cheaply would be to pick up an older standard preamp with phono. I have used both a PS Audio IVH and 4.6 for phono duties and like them a lot. They have loading options using 1/4 watt resistors for MM and MC carts, and can be run in passive mode. Many options from B&K, Adcom, Yamaha, Etc/Etc.

Then you could pair it with an amp at a later date.

 

[GPJeff]

Thanks for the recommendation and the link!
It is expensive for my budget, I'd repelled by the 150-300 $ , and buying vintage on the secondary market.

Sorry, I was just joking. I do good with just buying new vinyl with my wife looking over my shoulders.

 

[Vladimir1970]

1 ) Sorry, I was just joking. I do good with just buying new vinyl with my wife looking over my shoulders.

2 ) How are your speakers? If they need to be upgraded, that maybe the next logical step before the phono preamp.

Another way to upgrade your phono stage cheaply would be to pick up an older standard preamp with phono. I have used both a PS Audio IVH and 4.6 for phono duties and like them a lot. They have loading options using 1/4 watt resistors for MM and MC carts, and can be run in passive mode. Many options from B&K, Adcom, Yamaha, Etc/Etc.

Then you could pair it with an amp at a later date.

1 ) :thmbsp:

2 ) Once again I thank all those who in this thread gives me advice!

Acoustics, I have two pairs (Grundig hifi box 850a : Saba hifi box 35K ) both small room as 14 meters .
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/grundig_super_hifi_box_850a.html
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/saba_hifi_lautsprecherbox_35k.html

 

[SupaWales]

This is interesting

As for convenience for the moment as have just moved into a new place, I'm running the little bro', a AX-450. I had heard the phono stage was decent so hooked the 838 to the Yamaha's phono input.........I thought "OK, it's pretty detailed and quiet, but noticed something was missing......put my BHL stage using good parts in and fed into the AUX of the Yamaha, result is no contest, better on every level....much more natural tonally, richer with more body and so much more nuances across the spectrum and better staging :thmbsp:
Even quieter (I run off batteries) I have about $700 invested in the BHL build.

I agree with your comment on the Sansui, while I have not heard that one, the ones I have heard in various Sansui's are a step above the other brands I have heard from that era.

I found the AX-550 and 596 built in phono stages quite bright, which simply adds to the "where's the bass gone" impression.
Perhaps playing about with the cartridge loading might make some difference, but for me it sounds like the bottom 2 octaves are way down in level compared to the Naim NAC 62.

On the plus side the Yamaha's phono stages are both very "lively" and detailed with good soundstage / imaging so if you had older IMF transmission line speakers or Kef's with B139 woofers etc. it could be quite nice to listen to.. not necessarily accurate or flat but enjoyable!

But I have to say that I find these particular Yamaha amps make very good power amps with excellent speaker control, loads of power and very enjoyable to listen to for hours on end with Mission 733 floorstanders on the end of them.. and as a bonus they turn up on various auction sites etc. at bargain prices.

The AX-550 has replaced a Denon PMA-255UK and I prefer it even though the Denon isn't bad by any means.. but it just hasn't got the guts of the Yamaha.
Yes, I know it's not a fair comparison before the police sharpen their keyboards

 

[jmchrislip]

I agree with rolltide. The ART DJ Pre has been getting very good reviews for the $. It won't set you back that much and you can always return it if you don't like it. I know Amazon will take it back if you find it's not for you.

 

[Vladimir1970]

Once again thank you for your advice !
As a result, decided to order a tube phono stage: