Question about matching speakers to an amplifier to predict sound quality difference

[mschool]

I have a pair of 3-way speakers that have an Impedance of 6Ω and an output sound pressure level 90dB / W / m. They have a frequency characteristic of 40Hz-30kHz and a crossover frequency of 560Hz, 5kHz.

These speakers are connected to a digital integrated amp that is up to 44W per channel at 8 Ohms. It has a Speaker Impedance of 4 to 16 Ohms, and a frequency response of 10 Hz to 100 kHz, +1, -3 dB (Line 1).

My listening room is 4 Meters x 2.5 Meters (13’ x 8’) and I listen to music at no more than 83dB.

This is the first amp I have ever paired with these speakers, and I am happy with the sound quality. However, as the old adage goes, “you don’t know what you don’t know”.

If I were to swap out my amplifier for another, what do I need to consider in the specs of a different amp to improve my listening experience? Is it watt output? Do I need to go substantially higher in wattage knowing the size of the room and my tolerance for volume. Or do I just need an incremental increase, say to 66 Watts?

If 44W per channel is right for speakers with 6 Ohm impedance for a room that is 4 Meters x 2.5 Meters (13’ x 8’), is a swap out simply a zero sum gain?

 

[Grenadeslio]

if it were only that simple lol

Speaker/amp matching once past whether or not the amp is rated to handle the impedance load is all guess work.

I've had 34watt amps driving the same speakers a 400watt amp was previously driving with good results in both instances.

Added to that, your scenario of a 66watt amp vs a 44watt amp without any other information will yield very little difference in output. Doubling the output is only a 3db gain, with only 50% more you're looking at 1.5db, many speakers vary more than that across their frequency range.

Some amps sound sterile with some speakers, some muddy, it can be a hit or miss purchase. But with past history on our side we know certain speakers work better with less clinical amplification, and others need the tighter control of said amp.

If you have a particular pairing in mind give us more info.

 

[mschool]

if it were only that simple lol

Speaker/amp matching once past whether or not the amp is rated to handle the impedance load is all guess work.

I've had 34watt amps driving the same speakers a 400watt amp was previously driving with good results in both instances.

Added to that, your scenario of a 66watt amp vs a 44watt amp without any other information will yield very little difference in output. Doubling the output is only a 3db gain, with only 50% more you're looking at 1.5db, many speakers vary more than that across their frequency range.

Some amps sound sterile with some speakers, some muddy, it can be a hit or miss purchase. But with past history on our side we know certain speakers work better with less clinical amplification, and others need the tighter control of said amp.

If you have a particular pairing in mind give us more info.

I was thinking about paring the speakers (Victor SX700 spirit) with one of these amps. All of them can be had in Japan where I live as serviced and maintained for $300 - $500USD, which fits my budget. All of them have good on board phono preamps which handle MC/MM cartridges.

Marantz PM50
Marantz PM54
Marantz PM80
Marantz PM84
Luxman L-400
Luxman L-410
Luxman L-430

 

[Grenadeslio]

I was thinking about paring the speakers (Victor SX700 spirit) with one of these amps. All of them can be had in Japan where I live as serviced and maintained for $300 - $500USD, which fits my budget. All of them have good on board phono preamps which handle MC/MM cartridges.

Marantz PM50
Marantz PM54
Marantz PM80
Marantz PM84
Luxman L-400
Luxman L-410
Luxman L-430

From your list I would favor the Luxman, the 430 was their TOTL integrated at the time, that would be my choice.

 

[mschool]

From your list I would favor the Luxman, the 430 was their TOTL integrated at the time, that would be my choice.

The 430 is 105 wpc, the 410 is 75 wpc, and the 400 is 63 wpc. As I stated the size of my room and and loudness considerations, won't the 400 give me as much richness as the 430? I already know that an Onkyo 44 wpc amp will drive the speakers that I have. Are you granularly familiar with the features on these three Luxman models, and can you add any more color based on my research and assumptions? Much appreciated.

 

[dcmfan]

Do I need to go substantially higher in wattage knowing the size of the room and my tolerance for volume. Or do I just need an incremental increase, say to 66 Watts?

For those speakers, your room and your listening level, you're probably only using a couple of watts.

I haven't heard any of the amps you're considering, so can't help there. But in general I think you'll hear the most differences in amps as you change from digital ->solid state->tubes, and even then the differences might be subtle.

 

[opnly bafld]

I was thinking about paring the speakers (Victor SX700 spirit) with one of these amps. All of them can be had in Japan where I live as serviced and maintained for $300 - $500USD, which fits my budget. All of them have good on board phono preamps which handle MC/MM cartridges.

Marantz PM50
Marantz PM54
Marantz PM80
Marantz PM84
Luxman L-400
Luxman L-410
Luxman L-430

I believe any one of them would give you a little different sound and I would base my decision on condition and price.
Not familiar with your speakers, but would like to hear a pair.

 

[whoaru99]

For those speakers, your room and your listening level, you're probably only using a couple of watts.

...

Right. Even sort of a worst-case calculation give a result of about 1 watt of power.

If 83dB is the peak listening level then it's ~1W peak power.

If 83dB is more like an average listening level then it's about 1W average, but have to consider something for headroom so maybe 10W peak, give or take. That'll depend on the crest factor of the OPs music preferences.

 

[JoeESP9]

I have a pair of 3-way speakers that have an Impedance of 6Ω and an output sound pressure level 90dB / W / m. They have a frequency characteristic of 40Hz-30kHz and a crossover frequency of 560Hz, 5kHz.

These speakers are connected to a digital integrated amp that is up to 44W per channel at 8 Ohms. It has a Speaker Impedance of 4 to 16 Ohms, and a frequency response of 10 Hz to 100 kHz, +1, -3 dB (Line 1).

My listening room is 4 Meters x 2.5 Meters (13’ x 8’) and I listen to music at no more than 83dB.

This is the first amp I have ever paired with these speakers, and I am happy with the sound quality. However, as the old adage goes, “you don’t know what you don’t know”.

If I were to swap out my amplifier for another, what do I need to consider in the specs of a different amp to improve my listening experience? Is it watt output? Do I need to go substantially higher in wattage knowing the size of the room and my tolerance for volume. Or do I just need an incremental increase, say to 66 Watts?

If 44W per channel is right for speakers with 6 Ohm impedance for a room that is 4 Meters x 2.5 Meters (13’ x 8’), is a swap out simply a zero sum gain?

IMO there are only two issues here. Do you like what you're hearing and is it loud enough for you. As for which components you should use, I'm glad you haven't said so. Regardless to what you have there will always be suggestions that are often heavily weighted by personal preference.

Do some listening and experimenting with what you have.

 

[kappclark]

Ah - the eternal amp-speaker connection ... wish it were a simple bunch of measurements, but after all the measurements, it almost seems like a dark art -- I was recently surprised when changing out some small polks for some small Klipsch, each with similar specs and sensitivity ... but the Klipsch simply play better with the Fisher 400 than the Polks (the Polks were good, but Klipsch just better) ... and things like that make this hobby such fun - after the joy of discovering great music ...

 

[Grenadeslio]

The 430 is 105 wpc, the 410 is 75 wpc, and the 400 is 63 wpc. As I stated the size of my room and and loudness considerations, won't the 400 give me as much richness as the 430? I already know that an Onkyo 44 wpc amp will drive the speakers that I have. Are you granularly familiar with the features on these three Luxman models, and can you add any more color based on my research and assumptions? Much appreciated.

I wasn't basing my recommendation on output power, see my previous post.

 

[mschool]

I wasn't basing my recommendation on output power, see my previous post.

Roger that. Yes, I re-read and I understand your points better now. There is something about the design and circuitry of the 430 that makes it stand apart from the other models of that year. There are plenty of them in service in Japan where I am living, which is why I focused in on them, and the Marantz models in the first place. Thanks again.

 

[hopeless]

After 40 years of messing with this stuff, including nearly 25 in the industry, you're thinking about this way too hard. You want synergy, something where the components work together to make something better. I've had combos that should have worked but didn't, and vice versa. Best to try to blend amps and speakers to create the sound you want. Get a solid amplifier with reasonable power, then find your speakers.
You will find that a lot of specifications don't mean much.

 

[mschool]

After 40 years of messing with this stuff, including nearly 25 in the industry, you're thinking about this way too hard. You want synergy, something where the components work together to make something better. I've had combos that should have worked but didn't, and vice versa. Best to try to blend amps and speakers to create the sound you want. Get a solid amplifier with reasonable power, then find your speakers.
You will find that a lot of specifications don't mean much.

You know how in North America you can order any piece of gear, try it out and return it after 30 days with no questions asked? Well in some countries like Japan where I live, the second you power up a piece of gear, you cannot return it to the seller unless it is defective. So unless I want the joyless task of buying and selling, I want to do my research and make a good educated choice before I commit. Hence the presales research here for me.

 

[peguinpower]

The frequency response is a clue that the amp may be high quality. Commercial grade usually only specify 20 to 20k. High quality amps can be extremely under rated.

That said, even if you dont know what youre missing, what do you want to do?

90 db is fairly efficient and with a 44 watt pairing, that can get pretty loud. Higher wattage can give you more headroom and potentially more dynamics, but without knowing the physical dimensions of the speaker, you might only cause the speaker to choke, or chuff.

Id take a look at the speaker and consider if it can actually energize the room.

For example, I have 102 db sensitive Zu Omen Defs in a 20 x 50 room facing the short wall. Ive powered it with 37 watts per channel and it has filled that room, 80 wpc and a 100 wpc tube. But the best was with a 150 wpc mosfet 90 pound amp.

When called on, the Omen Def’s total of four 10 inch woofers and two 17 pound 2 inch diaphragm tweeters will take the room by the collar, lift it up 6 inches and throw it forward 3 feet Each speaker with the Radian tweeter upgrade is about 105 pounds each. Theyre beasts.

Now a 90 db efficient bookshelf speaker with two 6.5 inch woofers and two 1 inch tweeters, wont be the same.

 

[mschool]

That said, even if you dont know what youre missing, what do you want to do?

in my room, which is about a third the size of yours, I have no misgivings about the way my speakers fill the room at 83 dB. I’ve got them on solid stands with insulators and I’ve set up an equilateral triangle with them a 1/3 into the room from the rear wall. All good. I am very comfortable making decisions on listening quality, switching from direct or loudness or tonal controls if the recording needs it. CDs are sounding as good as ever on a Denon AR 1550, which is a tank,

Records have been a challenge. I never buy new. I’ve washed them and most sound great. I wonder though, if a vintage amp with switch filters (that my Onkyo does not have) might give me some more control filtering pops and clicks on used vinyl records. That was my impetus on looking at golden age amps where investment was made on the phono stage. The Luxman 4XX series have these physical settings.

I’m currently using an ArtDJ Pre II as an external phono preamp and was considering if making an investment in another phono preamp with adjustments like the Technics SU9070, but I paused on that move to consider a possible change in amp.

My TT is a Denon DP47F and the cartridge is an Audio Technica VM540ML. It gives me excellent detail but as it is a micro line it discovers any imperfection. Hence my curiosity on either an amp change.

 

[Grenadeslio]

in my room, which is about a third the size of yours, I have no misgivings about the way my speakers fill the room at 83 dB. I’ve got them on solid stands with insulators and I’ve set up an equilateral triangle with them a 1/3 into the room from the rear wall. All good. I am very comfortable making decisions on listening quality, switching from direct or loudness or tonal controls if the recording needs it. CDs are sounding as good as ever on a Denon AR 1550, which is a tank,

Records have been a challenge. I never buy new. I’ve washed them and most sound great. I wonder though, if a vintage amp with switch filters (that my Onkyo does not have) might give me some more control filtering pops and clicks on used vinyl records. That was my impetus on looking at golden age amps where investment was made on the phono stage. The Luxman 4XX series have these physical settings.

I’m currently using an ArtDJ Pre II as an external phono preamp and was considering if making an investment in another phono preamp with adjustments like the Technics SU9070, but I paused on that move to consider a possible change in amp.

My TT is a Denon DP47F and the cartridge is an Audio Technica VM540ML. It gives me excellent detail but as it is a micro line it discovers any imperfection. Hence my curiosity on either an amp change.

If you're thinking of buying a different amp to help with noisy records you're looking for the wrong thing.

First, there's no replacement for clean, undamaged records.

Second, to reduce noise remaining on clean used records a different stylus could be your best option, or a different table/arm.

here are some other options

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/sweet-vinyl-launches-sugarcube-sc-1-pop-and-tick-remover

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...mble-filter-in-the-gasp-digital-domain.10661/

https://www.wavecor.co.uk/

All that said, I have around 2000 albums, many acquired used when my brother in law passed, the rest I purchased new over many decades, or still sealed. I personally never purchase "used" records, they're typically only visually graded by the seller and that's absolutely worthless. I've had records that look pristine that are abysmal, and others that looked a lost cause that clean up beautifully and sound fantastic.

buying used records is the crapshoot the lower prices afford, you pick your poison, higher prices for new, or lower prices and the luck of the draw

 

[mschool]

Second, to reduce noise remaining on clean used records a different stylus could be your best option, or a different table/arm.

Excellent suggestion. Thank you. I have another cartridge with a new eliptical stylus. The cartridge is not as advanced as the Audio Technica, but as I've made notes on tonal settings with most of my records, I sure can make a note on cartridge/stylus and see what results I get as a practice. Thank you for responding to my thought process on this.

 

[peguinpower]

^^^agree. For pops and clicks, you want to clean the records well. I linked below parts for a 200 dollar ultrasonic record cleaner. Thats your best bet for cleaning.

If its surface noise thats the issue, Id suggest looking at TT setup. Also look at the overall all sound of your vinyl system. Sometime systems produce noise. Do you have much groove tracking noise? Does the stylus skip way too easily? Why?

Good luck!


Vinyl Record Cleaner Rack Rotating Adjustable Power Audio Accessories Ultrasonic https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RCMLGPD/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_7J2Z728BJB2NK1S04Q7C

VEVOR Commercial Ultrasonic Cleaner 6L Heated Ultrasonic Cleaner with Digital Timer Jewelry Watch Glasses Cleaner Large Capacity Cleaner Solution (6L) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HGNYO0U/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_QT999W4A3FM4GQNMPXN3?psc=1

 

[Grenadeslio]

Excellent suggestion. Thank you. I have another cartridge with a new eliptical stylus. The cartridge is not as advanced as the Audio Technica, but as I've made notes on tonal settings with most of my records, I sure can make a note on cartridge/stylus and see what results I get as a practice. Thank you for responding to my thought process on this.

Well, not to knock the brand but I find AT cartridges can be a bit unforgiving in revealing surface artifacts, some might say bright or forward.

I found Grado wood bodies to be much more laid back without any loss of detail than even their Prestige line.

Loved the Platinum on my Grace G707 arm until the maid decided (against instructions) to dust my turntables wiping out the Grado on one and a Denon DL301 on the other lol.

I laugh now but that was almost $800 lost, the Denon has been retipped, the Grado still patiently waiting now 4yrs later. The Grado went on the back burner after I discovered Grace cartridges, but they're getting hard to find at any kind of reasonable price.

I see LP Gear is making replacement stylus for the F-9 line of Grace, but I'm skeptical about the quality of the diamonds in direct comparison.

Mine are the earlier F-8 series, stylus between the lines aren't interchangeable but they used the same diamonds. Below are pics of my two different models. Sadly one is ready for replacement and it's a crapshoot buying used, and retipping

these aren't the best pics, viewed from the side these are crystal clear like glass

Grace F-8L10' Advanced Luminal Trace 10th Anniversary edition cartridge stylus


Grace F-8C Custom cartridge stylus


I would highly recommend the Grace if I could be sure the stylus from LP Gear were a suitable replacement.