Question about using Inputs on MX113

[reforminded]

I have a C29 delivering to an MC2205r, and while I patiently search for an MR78 I am currently using an MX113 as a tuner, connected to the C29 via the tape out jacks on the MX113. Sounds pretty darn good to be honest, and it occurred to me that could make use of the extra Aux and Tape inputs on the MX113 and expand the connectivity to my C29. Is there any downside to essentially using the MX113 as an AUX hub (in addition to a tuner)? It is my understanding that since I am using the tape output jacks instead of the main, I am bypassing all processing so it should deliver an unaltered signal?

 

[dinov]

You’re basically using 2 preamps. Kind of redundant except for the addition of the tuner. Shouldn’t be any problem at all and if you like the way the mx113 sounds why bother with an MR 78. Just a thought.

 

[AlTinkster92]

You've already got a great tuner on the 113, pit the money in speakers instead? I have a MX114 and wouldn't trade it for anything. Just my 2 cents.

 

[reforminded]

You've already got a great tuner on the 113, pit the money in speakers instead? I have a MX114 and wouldn't trade it for anything. Just my 2 cents.

MC113 knobs don't match!

Vanity aside, it does sound good, but according to everything I have read an MR78 should sound better and should pull a better signal. The MX113 uses an MR73 tuner inside, and by my math 78 is 5 better than 73.

But seriously, the knobs don't match my 2205 and c29.

 

[reforminded]

You’re basically using 2 preamps. Kind of redundant except for the addition of the tuner. Shouldn’t be any problem at all and if you like the way the mx113 sounds why bother with an MR 78. Just a thought.

Yes, definitely using a preamp into a preamp right now but its the only other tuner I have. By using the tape outs I am theoretically just getting a clean signal from the tuner section - so given the limited inputs of the C29 (1 tape 1 Aux 1 tuner) I was thinking I could take advantage of the Aux and Tape inputs of the MX113 and expand my hookups.

 

[twiiii]

The MX 113 was not my favorite unit to install. It wasn't till the 117 that I was really happy with tuner experience after having heard THE MX 110 Z MODEL at the time. IT had colored sound all its own for sure. The MX -113 just wasn't quiet enough when used with efficient speakers which were still very popular at the time of its introduction. I had the same issues with the C-26. But the C-24/26/28 had great much superior phono sections than the previous tube units which convinced me to give up on tube pre-amps. Lack of great tubes meant tube amps were being compromised. I moved on to SS. Maybe to soon I learned later.

The issue when using two pre-amps is you loose 6 to10 db signal to noise unless your very careful in how you combine the two. Distortion can increase geometrically, too. So I wouldn't. If you want a great FM tuner its either a 78 or for sound quality some prefer the 74. I have both the 80 and the 78 and prefer the 80, but it can be a bit of a headache with the touchy touch buttons. But Audio Classics and the Original designer of the 77 and 78 made it better than new so I am happy. Its been doing great since 2010.

Audio Classics has both MR 74 and 78 available if you want great restored sounding tuners in stock. They have a 11 day audition policy not including shipping time and great guaranty and warranty programs. If there is an issue under the warranty period they pay shipping both ways. I will say all Mac tuners work better with good antennae installed properly. Ask for Steve, Derreck or Ryan who happens to be the service manager. Steve will be back after Christmas. He's the owner.

 

[reforminded]

The MX 113 was not my favorite unit to install. It wasn't till the 117 that I was really happy with tuner experience after having heard THE MX 110 Z MODEL at the time. IT had colored sound all its own for sure. The MX -113 just wasn't quiet enough when used with efficient speakers which were still very popular at the time of its introduction. I had the same issues with the C-26. But the C-24/26/28 had great much superior phono sections than the previous tube units which convinced me to give up on tube pre-amps. Lack of great tubes meant tube amps were being compromised. I moved on to SS. Maybe to soon I learned later.

The issue when using two pre-amps is you loose 6 to10 db signal to noise unless your very careful in how you combine the two. Distortion can increase geometrically, too. So I wouldn't. If you want a great FM tuner its either a 78 or for sound quality some prefer the 74. I have both the 80 and the 78 and prefer the 80, but it can be a bit of a headache with the touchy touch buttons. But Audio Classics and the Original designer of the 77 and 78 made it better than new so I am happy. Its been doing great since 2010.

Audio Classics has both MR 74 and 78 available if you want great restored sounding tuners in stock. They have a 11 day audition policy not including shipping time and great guaranty and warranty programs. If there is an issue under the warranty period they pay shipping both ways. I will say all Mac tuners work better with good antennae installed properly. Ask for Steve, Derreck or Ryan who happens to be the service manager. Steve will be back after Christmas. He's the owner.

Is there anything I can do to be careful as I combine them? I am using the tape output on the MX113 (instead of the main output) to bypass all the processing (and bypassing the volume controls). It is connected to the Tuner Input on the C29 using some decent interconnects. I can pull a decent enough signal on a jazz station 60 miles away, and a very strong signal on my local public. Am I still losing 6 to 10 db signal to noise this way? I was under the impression that by using the level tape output it would be no different than if I had an MR-73 tuner hooked up to the C29 (the MX113 is built around an MR-73).

 

[dinov]

MC113 knobs don't match!

Vanity aside, it does sound good, but according to everything I have read an MR78 should sound better and should pull a better signal. The MX113 uses an MR73 tuner inside, and by my math 78 is 5 better than 73.

But seriously, the knobs don't match my 2205 and c29.

The MR78 is not the best sounding tuner, it has the best specs and performance as a tuner. The MR74 is probably the best sounding tuner so if you’re looking for sound that’s your model, or what you already have.

 

[62caddy]

MC113 knobs don't match!

Vanity aside, it does sound good, but according to everything I have read an MR78 should sound better and should pull a better signal. The MX113 uses an MR73 tuner...

MX113 tuner section is a slightly simplified MR74. It is the MX112 that is based on the MR73. Having owed both, and for whatever it's worth, I'm not certain the MR78 will provide a night and day advantage over the MX113 (assuming serviced and operating to spec). As much as it pains me to say it, the little Sony XDR-F1HD handily knocks either out of the box.

Later style knobs can be installed on the MX113 to match the C29.

Yes, definitely using a preamp into a preamp right now but its the only other tuner I have. By using the tape outs I am theoretically just getting a clean signal from the tuner section - so given the limited inputs of the C29 (1 tape 1 Aux 1 tuner) I was thinking I could take advantage of the Aux and Tape inputs of the MX113 and expand my hookups.

Absolutely. Connections to TAPE OUT jacks are direct and do not pass through the preamplifier circuits.

In fact, the MX113 doesn't even need to be powered on in order to pass signals from source units connected to the MX113's AUX jacks. I'm not certain if the TAPE input will work however but you can try it. If you do, make sure to set the input selector (knob) to TAPE rather than depressing the front panel TAPE (button).

 

[reforminded]

MX113 tuner section is a slightly simplified MR74. It is the MX112 that is based on the MR73. Having owed both, and for whatever it's worth, I'm not certain the MR78 will provide a night and day advantage over the MX113 (assuming serviced and operating to spec). As much as it pains me to say it, the little Sony XDR-F1HD handily knocks either out of the box.

Later style of knobs can be installed on the MX113 to match the C29.

View attachment 3066315


Absolutely. Connections to TAPE OUT jacks are direct and do not pass through the preamplifier circuits.

In fact, the MX113 doesn't even need to be powered on in order to pass signals from source units connected to the MX113's AUX jacks. I'm not certain if the TAPE input will work however but you can try it. If you do, make sure to set the input selector (knob) to TAPE rather than depressing the front panel TAPE (button).

Thanks for the detailed info. Where does one find appropriate knobs to "update" the MX113? Are all the knobs a plug and play swap or is some modification needed?

 

[62caddy]

Thanks for the detailed info. Where does one find appropriate knobs to "update" the MX113? Are all the knobs a plug and play swap or is some modification needed?

Plug and play- no mods necessary. I believe the insert knobs for the bass/treble controls of the C29 are used; the outer rings are not changed. The MC2205/2200 knobs are used for the volume/input selector and a tuning knob from the MR78.

It might not be a bad idea to double check with Audio Classics to verify, who should also be able to come up with the knobs needed.

*Selector/volume knobs from the C32/C33/C34 may also work for volume/selector on the MX113.

 

[twiiii]

As I remember the tape out put is almost 20 dd below the optimum level for the best signal to noise from C-29 line input. . Though having said that a C-29 was a very quiet unit. I lived with one over 30 years. A C-29 input sensitivity is rated at 250 millivolts which is the same as the MX 113 tape out put but that is with the volume control wide open which you don't want. . If we read the specs the optimum output for any Mac tuner is closer to 2.0 volts or 2.5 volts. So that means the C-29 interstage electronics and final stage isn't having to work as hard when you use a Mac tuner feeding the C-29 as it will be having the MX 113 feeding the C-29 line input at tape level signal. In other words using the MX 113 you have to turn the C-29 volume control wide open to implement the final gain stage to make up for the low voltage output of the tape output of the MX 113.

But as you are just listening to FM that signal has been so compromised by the station before it arrives to the transmitter and into the air that if anything the issues you are hearing are more about what the station is doing to the signal. I hate to say this but if you have a great DAC, you will probably get a better quality result streaming the stations broadcasts. Now if the station were broadcasting HD FM and you had one of the more current Mac tuners that can receive HD FM you would be way ahead.

A big issue can be or most likely is the the type of antennae you are using, where its placed, how high its placed, and where it is pointed. Multi path distortion can play havoc with FM tuners. Multi path distortion is when a tuner receives two or more of the same signal from different directions at different times. The solution is a directional antennae with strong off axis rejection receiving the first direct signal from the transmitter antennae rejecting all other arrivals arriving later.

Many years ago (50+) my favorite University FM station broadcast all it music programing encoded with Dolby B noise reduction. Most people using cars or average stereo systems didn't notice that as a negativity, but if you bought a Dolby B analog processor for your Tuner the difference was like night a day difference. Larger dynamic range, greater signal to noise, and lower distortion. But thats all gone today. Its all about convenience, easy access, and signal processing. The attempt make the sound better today is HD FM. Which you cannot receive and decode with a MX 113.

Is FM HD better than streaming conventional FM? Should be. If fact a station with the HD capability steaming its signal should be better than the FM HD over the air signal. Notice I said should be. But there are so many unknowns between the FM station and the companies providing the path between the FM station to your computer feeding your DAC plugged into your C-29, it is any ones guess if the streaming signal is better than the FM HD signal.

Today FM broadcasts by air or by streaming are my last best choice of music. Next up the ladder is stream music from a dedicated source, such as the Berlin Philharmonic. Next step is iTunes with the new HD steaming digital process Apple is using. Then comes the LP, which can be sometimes better than CD, SACD or DVD-A or not. Top of the list is the recordings I made made myself before I retired from that phase of the sound business in the early to middle 80's when digital became prominent. I still prefer analog to digital. Its not because analong is a better format. Its all about how people use the formats.

 

[Madman1]

Not trying to thread crap, but quick question @twiiii. When you stream Apple Music what do you use for a streamer? I have dabbled a little with the node and AirPlay vs Amazon hd, but I might not be getting the most out off Apple Music this way.