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Question for Onkyo A-9010 owners wrt using EXTERNAL PHONO PREAMP

mschool

mschool

Active Member
Onkyo A-9010 Amp owners: have you ever bypassed the internal phono stage and connected to one of the line inputs with an EXTERNAL PHONO PREAMP? If so, can you state what you experienced with sound improvement?

Background for my query:

I recently upgraded my TT cartridge to an Audio Technica VM540ML and I’m very happy with the unlocked quality of my favorite rock and prog albums. I’m now wondering what sort of additional demonstrable sound improvement I can squeeze out of my Onkyo A-9010, or have I simply topped off? I’m wondering if a cartridge upgrade feeding into an existing amp is the only way to go, and if the addition of an external phono preamp, regardless of type or price will be a nominal change as the Onkyo is the bottleneck based on its own design limitations?
 
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I think you can assume that some external phono amps will sound better than the Onkyo's internal phono section, and that some will not.
 
spark1 said:
I think you can assume that some external phono amps will sound better than the Onkyo's internal phono section, and that some will not.
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Not to be argumentative, but I can also assume that different cartridges going into the Onkyo's internal phono section will sound better as well, correct? What is it that the external phono stage is doing to the signal that makes it "sound better"? A different cartridge can "manufacture" "good/improved" sound without the addition of external preamps, and yet preamps sell for $49-$X000. People are telling me that a $49 DJ Pre II is going to improve the sound of a configuration they've never heard. I'm trying to understand the limitations here. The more pieces added to the chain; the more permutations.
 
Im using a vm95ml with my 9010 and wondered what I could do to improve things, but when I looked up the costs and would I be pleased with the end result, I purchased a Luxman L-10 instead.
 
losthorizon said:
Im using a vm95ml with my 9010 and wondered what I could do to improve things, but when I looked up the costs and would I be pleased with the end result, I purchased a Luxman L-10 instead.
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Interesting. You swapped out the modern amp and purchased a high end vintage one that was more to your liking with a better internal phono stage. Do you remember what external phono preamp might have gotten you to parity or somewhere near the Luxman L-10? Was the Luxman refurbished?
 
A better phono stage, whether internal or external, will have less noise and distortion and/or more accurate equalization.
 
spark1 said:
A better phono stage, whether internal or external, will have less noise and distortion and/or more accurate equalization.
Click to expand...
Noise meaning pops and click sounds during quiet periods of record play that washing and an antistatic gun can't eliminate?
 
mschool said:
Interesting. You swapped out the modern amp and purchased a high end vintage one that was more to your liking with a better internal phono stage. Do you remember what external phono preamp might have gotten you to parity or somewhere near the Luxman L-10? Was the Luxman refurbished?
Click to expand...
I had no problem with the 9010 and will not be parting with it, I recently purchased a Kenwood KD990 and admired the build quality and thought the L-10 would be a better match for it, the 9010 will now go with my Rega TT. Do you think you will gain much by adding another preamp to what is already a good budget amp?
 
mschool said:
Noise meaning pops and click sounds during quiet periods of record play that washing and an antistatic gun can't eliminate?
Click to expand...

No. Preamp will not filter record noise.

Less noise/less distortion in the amplification circuitry = a more accurate signal = more detail, and truer to the recording.
 
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losthorizon said:
I had no problem with the 9010 and will not be parting with it, I recently purchased a Kenwood KD990 and admired the build quality and thought the L-10 would be a better match for it, the 9010 will now go with my Rega TT. Do you think you will gain much by adding another preamp to what is already a good budget amp?
Click to expand...
Actually, I haven't a clue. I'm thinking my next course of action is to simply swap between the cartridge I upgraded from and the AT VM450ML and get my head around the sound differences between those two cartridges. If I can articulate that, I might be less confused about this whole question about "better".
 
spark1 said:
No. Preamp will not filter record noise.

Less noise/less distortion in the amplification circuitry = a more accurate signal = more detail, and truer to the recording.
Click to expand...

Thank you. That helps a great deal. In my current setup, I often think that what I'm listening to is exactly what the audio engineers intended. I may be approaching satisfaction without a capital outlay.
 
Cartridges are like speakers...they all have their own response curve, and preferences vary widely. Also, stylus shape/cut provides a difference in detail...finer cuts = more detail...which you may or may not like.

You might think about purchasing a good phono stage from a seller that offers free returns, and give it a try. See if it makes an appreciable difference to you.
 
spark1 said:
Cartridges are like speakers...they all have their own response curve, and preferences vary widely. Also, stylus shape/cut provides a difference in detail...finer cuts = more detail...which you may or may not like.

You might think about purchasing a good phono stage from a seller that offers free returns, and give it a try. See if it makes an appreciable difference to you.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I live in a country where there are no product returns for dissatisfaction, which explains the ocean of almost new second hand gear for sale, and that country is Japan. This is why I research so carefully before buying.

I actually liked the elliptical I have that shipped with the TT and I want to put it back into service and compare to the microline.
 
spark1 said:
Can you not purchase from sellers in other countries?
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I can, but I have to pay import taxes on electronic goods that I have shipped to me, and shipping costs back to the seller. The goods can be much cheaper in Japan. It's very competitive. There's just no returns, so I've got to be sure. If I'm not happy, there are online marketplaces here; but that is the only recourse. Unhappy? Sell it, but don't return it.
 
mschool: Your A-9010 sports a typical Lipshitz style, opamp-based (NJM4580 in ths case) phono stage with RIAA (re-)equalisation in the feedback loop. As such it wouldn't appear bad - however, it seems to have a pretty excessive input capacitance, so that one idea could be to modify it by throwing out the two 1000 pF caps (one per channel), which are responsible for that, and replacing these with more reasonably dimensioned caps instead. That would of course be pretty cheap, provided you could do it yourself (or would have a buddy, who could do it for you for a few bottles of beer or whatever...).

If you'd rather prefer to leave your A-9010 as is, quite a few separate phono stage models would be an improvement, though not necessairly in every regard. The Art DJPreII for example, while not being bad for the price, only has an internal supply voltage of 5 V asymmetrical (i.e. +5 V and 0 V) compared to the +12 and -12 V for the opamp in your Onkyo, which is why the integrated phono stage of the A-9010 has a significantly higher overload margin. Hence, if you'd like to try an Art model, I'd suggest to wait for their new PrecisionPhonoPre to finally appear (so far it seems to be delayed, quite possibly due to Covid 19).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
lini said:
mschool: Your A-9010 sports a typical Lipshitz style, opamp-based (NJM4580 in ths case) phono stage with RIAA (re-)equalisation in the feedback loop. As such it wouldn't appear bad - however, it seems to have a pretty excessive input capacitance, so that one idea could be to modify it by throwing out the two 1000 pF caps (one per channel), which are responsible for that, and replacing these with more reasonably dimensioned caps instead. That would of course be pretty cheap, provided you could do it yourself (or would have a buddy, who could do it for you for a few bottles of beer or whatever...).

If you'd rather prefer to leave your A-9010 as is, quite a few separate phono stage models would be an improvement, though not necessairly in every regard. The Art DJPreII for example, while not being bad for the price, only has an internal supply voltage of 5 V asymmetrical (i.e. +5 V and 0 V) compared to the +12 and -12 V for the opamp in your Onkyo, which is why the integrated phono stage of the A-9010 has a significantly higher overload margin. Hence, if you'd like to try an Art model, I'd suggest to wait for their new PrecisionPhonoPre to finally appear (so far it seems to be delayed, quite possibly due to Covid 19).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
Click to expand...
lini said:
mschool: Your A-9010 sports a typical Lipshitz style, opamp-based (NJM4580 in ths case) phono stage with RIAA (re-)equalisation in the feedback loop. As such it wouldn't appear bad - however, it seems to have a pretty excessive input capacitance, so that one idea could be to modify it by throwing out the two 1000 pF caps (one per channel), which are responsible for that, and replacing these with more reasonably dimensioned caps instead. That would of course be pretty cheap, provided you could do it yourself (or would have a buddy, who could do it for you for a few bottles of beer or whatever...).

If you'd rather prefer to leave your A-9010 as is, quite a few separate phono stage models would be an improvement, though not necessairly in every regard. The Art DJPreII for example, while not being bad for the price, only has an internal supply voltage of 5 V asymmetrical (i.e. +5 V and 0 V) compared to the +12 and -12 V for the opamp in your Onkyo, which is why the integrated phono stage of the A-9010 has a significantly higher overload margin. Hence, if you'd like to try an Art model, I'd suggest to wait for their new PrecisionPhonoPre to finally appear (so far it seems to be delayed, quite possibly due to Covid 19).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
Click to expand...
Manfred- Thank you very much for the clear insight and recommendation. I’ll keep an eye out for the new ART product.
 
To my ear, phono preamp sections all sound very different, one from another ..

IMHO only speakers have more variability to their "sound" signatures ..
As for Japan, there still must be someone that will let you listen to an item prior to purchase .. which is as necessary for phono stages as it is for speakers..
But I can certainly understand why you're intent on research ..
 
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