Does it make the system and the speakers sound much better. I'm a novice here about this. Please explain in a way i can understand...have a peachtree decco 65 with my bookshelves..when i listened to the revels with a 3k amp it sounded phenominal..imaging etc. Will i get a beter soun stage/detail/imaging with better power??
question on power/amps
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Kingshead
Professor
The extra money has to buy something or what would be the point? More power isn't always the answer, but with all things being equal more power will sound more effortless.
stereofanboy
Addicted Member
Hard to drive speakers sent me searching for more power and stability. I found that all my subsequent speakers tended to sound better with the extra power available, even the ones that were easy to drive.
Strictly speaking, I don't know that the extra watts led to the improved sound, it may have just been a higher quality piece.
Strictly speaking, I don't know that the extra watts led to the improved sound, it may have just been a higher quality piece.
kahlfin1k
Well-Known Member
Usually higher end amplifiers tend to have more power as the market demands it (tubes maybe being an exception).
Kingshead
Professor
Try adding a quality powered sub. Those are some fine speakers, and a nice little amplifier, that are apparently being asked too much of. Maybe look into a sub from Rythmik Audio. Their subs will do your equipment justice and keep the music shall we say "more musical"? The use of a sub will ease the burden on the amp immensely.
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Superampman
AK Member
If you're using all of the amp, you're likely clipping it to a good extent. When upper end response continues to increase in volume without taking the bottom end with it, you're in clipping territory. Imo, you need a bigger amp. Nominal 4db more is a lot more than it suggests when you add headroom that is typically available.
barkerd
Super Member
Don't really agree. A better analogy is if I want to be pushed back in my seat when driving and the mood hits me / more HP is a benefit. A yugo will get you to the speed limit .... but the speed limit alone is not what driving is all about.
Underpowered amps are the cause of many blown tweeters : because they are often forced into clipping the signal since they are pushed to their limits the tweeter cannot handle the distorted signal ........
Depends on how often you push it / and what source material you use.......popular stuff today (Google "loudness wars" ) is a very different beast than say recordings of 30 years ago and more (generalization here) that were more concerned with dynamics ......
But : "all other things being equal" more power is usually of benefit for critical listening
whoaru99
Epic Member
Only if you're using it.
As in most cases we have no real idea were the OPs concerns are coming in with respect to volume/SPL to really understand if the problem is likely related to the amp, or if it's more likely something else.
When ever I read someone having bookshelf-type speakers and expressing concern about problems at higher volumes, first thing that crosses my mind isn't the power/power amp. It may be a great speaker, but it's still a small speaker, perhaps the expectations are too high for its capability in that situation.
whoaru99
Epic Member
If you take the speakers somewhere else to try different amp, just remember that you're changing a lot more than that. You'd almost certainly be changing the source gear, preamp, and room acoustics too. That's lots of change to try to evaluate just the amplifier part.
barkerd
Super Member
Disagree : you are always using it :
there was a test done in the 80's where they positioned a loudspeaker system and a snare drum behind a screen ...... they needed 600 watts before the listeners could not distinguish between either source on single snare hits ........... for the probable 1/10 000th of a second that that power was needed ....... it was still distinguishable when not present
whoaru99
Epic Member
Disagree all you like, but it's still not true (relative to high power).
I'm a believer in big amps simply because I sometimes have big requirements, but your supporting example is too vague to derive any meaningful significance from it.
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Just my opinion -
power amps may, or may not make your system sound better. Normally I think of 2 or 3 advantages of a power amp over an integrated or receiver.
1. Flexibility. By going with a power amp I now have the flexibility to play with different preamps. many int. amps and receivers have the option to do this also, so not the biggest deal
2. With a receiver or an int. amp, you are cramming a whole lot more into about the same size box, so normally, not always, some sacrifices have to be made. If a manufacturer is producing nothing but a power amp, they concentrate on making it the best it can possibly be for a certain price point On the receiver and int. amp they are doing the same thing, but instead of just the power amp, they also have to get a preamp and/or tuner into the box within a certain price point It only makes sense, if it is a reputable company etc, that if I pay $800 for a power amp or say $800 for a receiver, the power amp is going to have higher quality components in it as it does not have to sacrifice anything for the other stuff.
That is purely my opinion
3. POWER - I happen to gravitate towards low efficiency speakers for some reason. I don't mean to, but most speakers I have or like are not the 89-90db at 1 watt kind of speaker. For example my MartinLogans are 84 db at 2 watts - so twice as much power and it is still 5-6 db less.
Also something many don't really check into is the phase angle of a speaker. Some speakers may appear to be say a 4 ohm speaker with decent sensitivity, but maybe if you check out the phase angle it has a real nasty impedance curve from 80hz to 500hz - a capacitive phase angle and will eat lesser amps for lunch.
The vast, vast majority of int amps and/or receivers were just not made to handle that type of speaker. Yes if it is a quality int. amp/receiver it may play the speaker and it may sound okay, but you are not getting anything close to what the speaker is capable of doing plus it isn't the best thing in the world longevity wise for that int. amp/receiver as she probably will be pretty hot when done.
Remember my 2nd "reason" - more amp into the same size space with less sacrifices ? Many power amps were designed with the tough load speakers in mind. Sure a Krell sounds good, but there are other reasons it costs a pretty penny to own one, an amp like that, among many others, was designed to handle 2 ohm loads easily - and making an amp like that does not come cheap. There are a few not very expensive power amps that can handle a tough load, Adcom comes to mind, but even with power amps, many were not really designed for playing speakers like say a pair of Infinity IRS Gamma or whatever they are.
So, basically it really depends on what speaker you have in mind. I just don't mess around and pretty much only buy power amps now because maybe now I will be using it on say a pair of B&W DM2, but maybe next week I will be driving by a garage sale and they will have a pair of Apogee speakers sitting in the yard. If so, now I hopefully don't have to worry about then also needing a new amp....
Going with separates also allows you to put together a nicer system for a lower initial outlay. If I have $1k burning a hole in my pocket, instead of buying a real nice int. amp/receiver, I could instead buy a real nice power amp or preamp. Then after saving my pennies for however long, I can then go buy myself the preamp/power amp to go with it. So now I have a nicer system PLUS if I do run across those Apogee speakers in the yard sale, I don't have to worry about now running out and starting over.....just plug and play
all just my opinion
power amps may, or may not make your system sound better. Normally I think of 2 or 3 advantages of a power amp over an integrated or receiver.
1. Flexibility. By going with a power amp I now have the flexibility to play with different preamps. many int. amps and receivers have the option to do this also, so not the biggest deal
2. With a receiver or an int. amp, you are cramming a whole lot more into about the same size box, so normally, not always, some sacrifices have to be made. If a manufacturer is producing nothing but a power amp, they concentrate on making it the best it can possibly be for a certain price point On the receiver and int. amp they are doing the same thing, but instead of just the power amp, they also have to get a preamp and/or tuner into the box within a certain price point It only makes sense, if it is a reputable company etc, that if I pay $800 for a power amp or say $800 for a receiver, the power amp is going to have higher quality components in it as it does not have to sacrifice anything for the other stuff.
That is purely my opinion
3. POWER - I happen to gravitate towards low efficiency speakers for some reason. I don't mean to, but most speakers I have or like are not the 89-90db at 1 watt kind of speaker. For example my MartinLogans are 84 db at 2 watts - so twice as much power and it is still 5-6 db less.
Also something many don't really check into is the phase angle of a speaker. Some speakers may appear to be say a 4 ohm speaker with decent sensitivity, but maybe if you check out the phase angle it has a real nasty impedance curve from 80hz to 500hz - a capacitive phase angle and will eat lesser amps for lunch.
The vast, vast majority of int amps and/or receivers were just not made to handle that type of speaker. Yes if it is a quality int. amp/receiver it may play the speaker and it may sound okay, but you are not getting anything close to what the speaker is capable of doing plus it isn't the best thing in the world longevity wise for that int. amp/receiver as she probably will be pretty hot when done.
Remember my 2nd "reason" - more amp into the same size space with less sacrifices ? Many power amps were designed with the tough load speakers in mind. Sure a Krell sounds good, but there are other reasons it costs a pretty penny to own one, an amp like that, among many others, was designed to handle 2 ohm loads easily - and making an amp like that does not come cheap. There are a few not very expensive power amps that can handle a tough load, Adcom comes to mind, but even with power amps, many were not really designed for playing speakers like say a pair of Infinity IRS Gamma or whatever they are.
So, basically it really depends on what speaker you have in mind. I just don't mess around and pretty much only buy power amps now because maybe now I will be using it on say a pair of B&W DM2, but maybe next week I will be driving by a garage sale and they will have a pair of Apogee speakers sitting in the yard. If so, now I hopefully don't have to worry about then also needing a new amp....
Going with separates also allows you to put together a nicer system for a lower initial outlay. If I have $1k burning a hole in my pocket, instead of buying a real nice int. amp/receiver, I could instead buy a real nice power amp or preamp. Then after saving my pennies for however long, I can then go buy myself the preamp/power amp to go with it. So now I have a nicer system PLUS if I do run across those Apogee speakers in the yard sale, I don't have to worry about now running out and starting over.....just plug and play
all just my opinion
Here's a supporting example from my experience. Listening to ADS 1290s with 140 WPC B&W sounded good. Inserting a 200 WPC Acurus completely woke up the ADS, with much tighter, better controlled and deeper-sounding bass. Music selected was acoustic jazz, and it made the string bass sound much more real. Rarely do I listen at more than 75-80 DB, so I really doubt the B&W was running out of juice.
The difference was likely due to more available current, and I could probably be as happy or happier with a 100 WPC amp with a huge power supply. And those are expensive.
The point being, an amp can make a very notable difference, but based on more than just their wattage rating, regardless of whether or not it's being pushed to clipping.
All Amps Do Not sound alike.. they should, in theory.
But real life being what it is.
Current capability is A serious factor in an Amp (headroom capability is a easy descriptor) Also it is Not a direct correlation to claim output Wattage either
As in 50 watters can and do have 20 A capacity while many 200 watters simply do not.
Note: Price is Not the sole determinant either, Decent design Is.
When looking to buy an Amp read the specs. An Instantaneous current capacity of 20 + amps is Very desirable. Mandatory in MY experiences.
It makes most all speakers sparkle with depth and dynamics.
Read Mfg's specs! carefully.
Some list current capacity, many don't.
IMO instantly discard any that the Makers avoid listing that important info.. they are Dross.
. G'luck
whoaru99
Epic Member
bare;7845221. said:Current capability is A serious factor in an Amp (headroom capability is a easy descriptor) Also it is Not a direct correlation to claim output Wattage either
Not quite, as current and wattage are related through Ohm's law when tied through the speaker's impedance,
Headroom is primarily a function of voltage, not current.
A current spec isn't necessary as most are given at unrealistic impedance levels immaterial to typical speakers. Do the math, see for yourself.
Since the overwhelming majority of audio amplifiers are based on the principle of voltage amplification, a much better way would be to list the voltage that can be delivered to the load.
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