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R to R vs VCR!

markd51

markd51

Nyuk Nyuk
Hi all, I'm not sure if many of you are aware of this use, but I see lots of you on the hunt for cool Reel to Reel Machines, and certainly, there's nothing like a big honkin R-R staring you in the face, playing some sweet tunes, but are any of you aware of the fact that a Stereo Hi-Fi VCR s capable of really fantastic performance, for a pittance of the cost?

I read an article many years ago aout this, so please don't ask me to quote particulars, but I can remember that a simple Stereo Hi-Fi VCR has a capability in Stereo HI-FI mode to playback at a very high rate of speed with usually a frequency response of at least 20-20Khz.

Sure, there are perhaps a couple of disadvantages, but some great advantages like smaller size (easily fit on a rack shelf) easily gotten media (VCR Tapes) also low cost of Media, and the Machine, and at high speed, you get two solid hours of recorded music.

Simple to hook up, just plug in the audio jacks, and forget about the video!

I understand that in Hi-Fi Stereo Mode, the audio track is laid down differently onto the tape versus the two other slower speeds.

For any who are looking to get into Analog at a peanuts price, this may be one way to go, foregoing the difficulty of finding a suitable, and reliable R-R Machine. Mark
 
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I was never impressed with the sound of VHS. At the best of times it still sounded muted and distinctly lo-fi. Now mind you, if there was a way to use the entire width of the tape for just audio, you'd have the makings of a world beater there.
 
The Hi-Fi system uses a modulation system to store the audio along with the video information so it is capable of higher quality audio than the linear mono audio tracks.
The speed does not seem to affect the Hi-Fi audio quality. IT is not strictly "analog" like reel to reel machines.
The problem I have found is that if there is a dropout on the tape and the machine loses sync for an instant the audio defaults back to the noisy linear mono track.
This is especially problematic at the slow speed.
Also with most of the VCR's it is impossible to control the audio input level.
 
I heard about this too when I was considering going to DAT or the Sony Mini-Disk. I ended up doing neither and stayed with vinyl and cds as the computers and programs were getting so much better... but never better than vinyl. That said, if I were to do a live recording I would probably use a VCR myself. My friend has just bought a portable digital recorder ( he records organ concerts at a theatre) and I've often wondered what a tape, VCR or R to R, vs his digital would yield.
 
I did this with my Beta HiFi. The sound is good, but any flaws in the tape that might make the video jump does horrible things to the sound. Sometimes I also got clicks and pumping noises. The VCR I used was the Sony SL-HF300. I also had a Toshiba that produced the same artifacts. If any consumer video format was actually made to record music, it had to be Beta. The specs were there, plus it used a much better recording method for audio, since it had the extra space on the tape. I can't remember if I used new tapes though, so I'd recommend calling up Sony or Maxell and picking up some crisp L-750's.
 
At some point I'm going to try this, summing multitrack mixes from my computer to hi-fi VHS.

When I was in college, Christ, almost 20 years ago I was playing in the big band and we used to record an album each year. This bari player was a budding audiophile and engineer and I remember him recording the band in the rehearsal room, with some PZMs and a hi-fi VCR. Back then it seemed like those recordings sounded a million times better than the big studio recordings we did. I didn't know the first thing about the technology then but always remembered those recordings sounding like the Stan Kenton Capitol recordings. In truth it probably had a lot more to do with levels, mic placement and room ambience than the medium though. Still, something I'd like to try.
 
I remember messing around with stereo recording on hi-fi VHS back when I used reel-to-reel, don't recall what recorder I tried but it had decent channel level controls and meters.

It was problematic - real touchy about tape quality and the mechanical noise of deck was unbearable - but it sounded great. I didn't do much recording and really only used tape to make vinyl copies/compilations and if wasn't for the machine noise it might have replaced the reel-to-reel.
 
It is strictly analog... the trick is that the audio track is frequency, not amplitude modulated, and indeed the hi-fi performance is pretty much independent of tape speed. Even FM audio require far less bandwidth than the ca. 5 MHz that NTSC color TV video requires.

I have an old (ca., 1986) and very reliable Zenith VR-2300 6-head VHS HiFi VCR which I have used for dubs of LP's and CD's as well as some live recording (small string ensembles). If one uses good tape (no droupouts), the results are very very good.
 
Yes, this does work, and the sound is quite good, assuming that you have a true HI-FI VCR. Regular, non-HIFI VCRs are truly horrible.

The trick is that you need to find a unit that has record level controls, and VU meters, because releatively few VCRs had this critical feature.

The biggest downside is that searching for a song, or album on a VCR really sucks. Its not like with video where you can just FF through commercials while watching. With Audio only sources, you will just see a blue screen on the TV, and so you have to start and stop alot, which is a combersome process with a VCR.

Open reel tape is easier to search, in my opinion, as the machines are switch between wind and play much more smoothly than will a clunky VCR. Plus you can visually look at the reels to judge where you are at on the tape, if you don't have a real-time counter on your deck.

Frankly, I gave this up after recording a few tapes becuase it was extremely inconveinient. I prefer recording on R2R, but your deck really needs to be alligned well, to sound better. I also agree with some others that the highs were somewhat harsh on the VCR, and that there were pumping artifacts from the built-in (non defeatable) NR, and so to me, it is more of an interesting curiosity, than something that I would recommend wasting much time on.
 
I have read about this on here before and am a bit intriqued. First I resurrected my cassettes. Then I procured an 8 track. Now I might try using a VCR to record music. Where does one go from there? Edison Cylinders?
 
This has come up here at AK a few times. In my opinion, don't spend any extra effort to do this sort of recording. I've detailed my experience with VHS Hi-Fi recording here. In my opinion, R-t-R is MUCH better.
 
Buy a mid-90s or later Panasonic AG series (professional) recorder. They are designed to ONLY run at SP (high speed), so the mechanism is rock solid. Cleaning is a snap since everything is easily accessible if you remove the top plate (4 screws). They have real VU meters, level controls and REAL time code (hours, minutes, seconds, frames) so you can find stuff easily. Nice editing facilities on many of them, too, and they have built-in Time Base Correctors. And most of them record at S-VHS (should you ever want to do video). In addition to multiple RCA ins/outs, most models have XLR and/or 1/4" connections, and they're rackmountable. Some even allow mic/line mixing! The model I've used most is the AG-DS555, which also has a jog/shuttle dial, nice tracking controls and headphone jack with level control. One is for sale here (not affiliated) with some nice pics:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-AG-DS...ryZ21168QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
I have experimented using the panasonic pro decks snd
reel to reel beats it hands down. The problem with the hifi
vcr is the head switching that gives the highs a harsh sound
and there is also some pumping/breathing artifacts from the noise reduction scheme the vcr uses.
And as mentioned above, any drop out or tape problem
causes wretched audio hits.
 
I bought one of the first "Hi-Fi" VHS decks, an Akai VS-603U back in '85 specifically for taping music. It worked great, right up to the point when one of the logic circuits died in the late 90's. I also still have a Teac Hi-Fi deck that works good. They both had adjustable levels, real VU meters, etc.

I used them primarily to backup CDs and albums, and even R2R tapes, but mostly to tape long radio broadcasts, then copy selections from those shows to cassette or R2R or whatever. I am surprised more people didnt do this- but it looks like my experience was better than many....
 
Ya, I have used a Sony B max NTSC VCR as high quality sound recording michine:
Other units may or may not be suitable because one needs:
1. Hi Fi stereo system with volume control input
2. Prefer to be able to record without video signal
It will give you 20-20K of frequency response and quite high in S/N ratio too ( I forgot the figure ) It is anolog sound too ( FM modulated )
But one must use high quality tapes with minimun drop-outs!
 
I had a Sharp VHS Hi-Fi deck with peak level meters and adjustable line inputs. I used for long radio broadcasts, copying 12-inch dance singles and MTV(if the local radio station was simulcasting a concert).
 
When VHS Hi-Fi came out I planned to buy a deck and transfer all my reel to reel tapes onto VHS Hi-Fi, take up less space, yada, yada. I did alot of research, looking at the specs and features of every deck. I wanted manual record level controls and meters. Very few decks had these and some that did had dismal specs; -6dB@20KHz. I decided on the Harman Kardon VCD-1000. It is a gorgeous machine with a champagne gold front panel with a glass bead finish. Very distinctive, it looks like a piece of audio equipment, not a VCR. Each deck came with it's individual test report with a frequency response graph, from final test. The sound was excellent. I made dubs from CDs that were indistinguishable from the source. But the format is finicky. You get dropouts at the slow speed. Better tape gave better results, so I bought High Grade and Extra High Grade tapes. Unfortunately, no one mentioned the dropout problems at slow speed, so I dubbed off my reel to reel tapes at the slow speed to take up less space and fewer tapes. It still took about 30 VHS tapes for my collection. Then I sold the deck and gave the tapes with it. Within 3 years I started noticing the tapes had more and more dropouts, even on tapes I hadn't played more than once or twice. Keeping the heads immaculately clean and replacing the pinch roller helped. The alignment of the tape path is critical for VHS Hi-Fi, and there are problems of incompatibility between machines. Some of my tapes, Ampex of course, began to stick to the heads and guides and were unplayable.
The other problem was that although the deck had great sound, the mechanism was made by Mitsubishi and it had idler wheels that went bad all the time. And you couldn't buy just the head drum if it wore out, you had to buy the whole head / motor assembly for $120 or something. I have been transferring all the non-replaceable recordings to the computer and then to CD. Oh, and I now own 3 reel to reel decks, and probably as many reel to reel tapes as I started with.
 
One thing I always noticed about VHS Hifi is that the slower tape speeds do affect sound quality in some ways. The most notable to me was when using EP/SLP the sound of the video AFM heads switching was really noticeable. I'm thinking that the video tracks do have a tendency to overlap a minute amount but it's enough to be audible with the AFM system.
Since it used compansion (like dbx 1 and 2) it was really noticeable on transient sounds such as a string pluck or a test tone. Just as cassettes using dbx type 2 will frame such sounds in hiss VHS hifi frames them a combo of hiss and head switch noise which sounds like a buzz type sound. Recording at SP did help minimize this somewhat but the same characteristics were there only less severe.
IF there had been a way to have heads (piezo electric maybe?) that would attempt to track the afm signal that's under the video it may have been a really good audio only platform.

I never tried a beta hifi recorder like this so it might have behaved differently even though it also uses compansion.
 
...Some of my tapes, Ampex of course, began to stick to the heads and guides and were unplayable..
Click to expand...

Of all the brands of video tape I have tried, Ampex is the only brand that gave me the same problem. The most stable were Scotch, maxell and TDK with stable meaning fully playable and low (or unnoticeable) dropouts.

I have a Scotch VHS tape that was shot in 1983 and 'til this day is has very good playback quality. The original recording wasn't great with the jvc tube color cam and rca vcr the recording itself is in great shape.
 
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