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Rashad Becker on unavoidable types of vinyl distortion

zssmith

zssmith

New Member
If you're into vinyl and anything electronic or avant garde coming from Berlin, you should know the name Rashad Becker of the legendary Dubplates and Mastering. He's one of the best in the game! He presents some possibly controversial ideas here which I'm curious what this community would think about. Maybe it's all old news though:

At about 33 minutes in ( t=1977 ) he demonstrates very clearly the reduction of high frequency content on the inner edge of a record vs the outer edge.

A little farther along he talks about a bit more subtle distortion aspects, comparing hifi styluses to DJ styluses (unfavorably) which are harder to hear if you weren't in the room at the time, but still illustrative.

One detail I thought was interesting was that, in his opinion, the only real advantage of 180g records is that they can be flatter.

A really great discussion for producers and enthusiasts alike!
 
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From what I’ve seen, heard, and read, the record makers today are still struggling to catch up to vinyl state-of-the-art from 1989!

So I have a hard time lending credibility to any modern day manufacturers. And a far cry from what I saw at Columbia Records in 1967.
 
zssmith said:
the only real advantage of 180g records is that they can be flatter.
Click to expand...

Not sure I agree with this. Can’t tell you how many new, fresh from the shrink, warped 180g LPs I’ve purchased and received over the last 5 years.
 
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Thanks for pointing us to this presentation, zssmith!

Although I had a tough time understanding much of what was being said (I watched the whole thing!) I did come away with a few observations regarding what I DID understand. One of those had to do with his comments that every time a record is played, it does not sound as good the next time. Now, perhaps to ears trained like Mr. Becker's, this would be evident. To my ears, however, I find that albums I've played dozens of times do not lack in luster any more than what I recall hearing the first time they were played. Am I misunderstanding him or is this what you all got from what he said as well? I know it's been bantered about many, many times how the first play is the best play, and that if you're committing new records to digital transfers it should be upon first play but I am still skeptical.....or should I just be thankful that my ears are not trained thusly?

A fine and interesting presentation nonetheless, and am inspired to learn more about "how to listen," as it were. In particular, I'd like to learn more about harmonics and how to listen for them and be aware of the influence on the sound of the music. Guess it never ends, which is part of the intrigue of this hobby of ours, eh?
 
Fishead said:
To my ears, however, I find that albums I've played dozens of times do not lack in luster any more than what I recall hearing the first time they were played. Am I misunderstanding him or is this what you all got from what he said as well?
Click to expand...

So, I think one thing to point out is, this guy obviously loves vinyl. The premise here isn't to diss vinyl necessarily, but just to present some objective realities of the medium. I think that with most music, the distortion inherent and from successive listens is very subtle when compared to these idealized test signals that he's prepared. With most styles of music, which are very organic in nature, these subtle qualities that vinyl adds are what constitutes its desirable character in fact. A great example is how he says at one point that vinyl phase distortion can make transients from a recorded hi-hat extend outside the stereo field in an interesting way.

Because Dubplates & Mastering deals with a lot of highly abstract music, which often reduces sound to very minimal components (akin to a test signal, thinking of something like Alva Noto), I think that Becker has become that much more acquainted with what is required to prepare various types of music for the medium.
 
Yes, agreed....the comment just left me feeling a bit deflated as I consider playing my 45RPM copy of Gregg Allman, Midnight Rider, for about the 20th time! Abstract is for me an understatement of what was presented in terms of "music....." As for the credits, a quick look did not reveal anything I recognized in terms of artists or albums.....I guess I should not be surprised. Strange stuff (for me)!

PS - What the heck, I'm going to play it again!!!! (Acoustic Sounds has more available) :beerchug:
 
So, I think one thing to point out is, this guy obviously loves vinyl. The premise here isn't to diss vinyl necessarily, but just to present some objective realities of the medium.
Click to expand...

Not completely objective. The whole idea of massive groove wear after first play has been debunked decades ago. Exhaustive, extensive research on groove wear and stylus wear was done by several “heavy hitter” record manufacturers and cartridge manufacturers from 1955-1980. With lighter VTFs, (1-1.25 grams) and proper tracking, no groove wear was to be found even after 100 plays.

But as far as distortion goes. I listened to the interview of PS Audio’s Analog Hardware Engineer (3 parts) with interest. He discusses distortion from all sources, and the phono preamp. He puts it in an interesting context; near absolute perfect specs vs the “musicality” of playback. The PS Audio Stellar phono preamp (near perfect specs) vs what is being looked at now. I found it informative.
 
Hey Wolfie, are you talking about Arnie Nudell? There was a podcast with him and Paul McGowan but I haven't heard it. If that's not the one you are referencing, kindly provide info where that might be found.

There is much to be learned, and the trouble is that there are often conflicting presentations making it difficult to know what's what. I had also heard of the research you point to but perhaps I'm missing a point and apples aren't being compared to apples.....that is, Mr. Becker states he "hears" a difference of degradation whilst the research done was, I believe, a study of the character of the grooves after so many plays. I suppose there is some possibility that observation of the grooves and determining no wear may not definitively conclude that the observed sound has not changed either. I'm still really interested to know more about what he's listening for, all that stuff about first, second, third, even fourth and fifth harmonics intrigues me from the perspective of learning what to listen for. Fascinating stuff!
 
No, this is with Darren Myers, Senior Analog Hardware Engineer for PS Audio. I found his perspective and context on the subject, as a product engineer, very enlightening. He’s very creative, yet analytical.

Much of what he has found, even using SPICE modeling, agrees with what I found over 10 years ago. Discrete vs IC OpAmps, and other considerations about distortion and real world results.

“The art of the phono stage.”

This is part 2 of 3:

 
Kind of you to provide the link, Wolfie....will be tuning in shortly. Thanks!
 
RTI, the record pressing company that hosts many heavy hitters (MoFi, AP, etc) as clients has a great write-up for people who submit recordings for pressing. It's different from the OP's video, but is a great knowledgeable read for vinyl listeners! Many of their links are super informative to vinyl addicts!
http://recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm
 
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