Recapped C33 vs Newer Preamp

[michael5959]

Hi,

I have a C33 that was gone through & recapped by Terry D about 10 yrs ago. I’m wondering how the recapped C33 would stack up against a newer pre such as a C47 or C2200/2300. The C33 is paired with a MC2255 (recapped a couple yrs ago) & Thorens TD125MkII TT. Primary digital source is streaming from my Sonos, but vinyl is my primary music listening media. I’ve been very happy with this set up & have had it for a long time (I am the second owner for the entire kit), so maybe I am just chasing a bit of a Change,but tightening things up a bit, especially on the bottom, and having a remote would be nice. What do you all think?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[techguy0192]

Nothing wrong with a C33. However, the C47 or C2200/2300 will blow it away in terms of features and performance. The preamp is not an area to skimp. Even using an older amp, the more advanced preamps will have an impact.

 

[c_dk]

OP, are you saying you believe the bottom end, the deep bass, part of you audio spectrum is lacking?

Which source is "more" lacking the Sonus files or LPs?

Now I am going to channel my long passed friend Gow; he would have asked," who set up your table, and has your room/speakers been voiced?"

 

[twiiii]

My 34V was recently just serviced and except for the C-1100 signal to noise the C-34 met the current stuffs specs. Its distortion figures were all below .005 %. True its not .002 of some of the other products but it definitely is almost there. For those of us that want flexibility and don't need digital inputs the new pre-amps don't even come close. Variable loud ness, HP and LP filters, graphic tone controls, processor loops, equalization via graphic controls, Record selector, mode selector etc etc. It would be nice to have a MC input, but thats why I have a MP100. It also has a dynamic range controller. And we don't have to worry about static electricity. True we don't have remote controls, but I can reach my c-34 from my listening chair and I have to get up to change tapes records or cd's. so what's the problem? With digital standards changing every 5 minutes it seems, the plug in module is a good idea, except for the fact you have to up date the soft ware on the units with the DA1 module to use the DA2 which isn't being sold separately yet. Which I think is a bad move. The new module should have come first with the update and then the new pre-amps. If people are buying new pre-amps just because of the difference in the input modules that doesn't make since to me. I mean if that were the case we should have a new D series pre-amps every 3 to six months..

I was in the Apple store the other day and a gentleman just bought a new iWatch and he couldn't pair it with his model 10 phone because he had not been updating the software on his phone. So he had to sit around for a while while the assistant helped him update his phone so his iWatch would interface with the phone. properly. Then Apple came out with the series 5 watch. I got my money back from the series 4 so the new series 5 only cost me $50.00 more this time because I chose the new Stainless steel band., I got my new watch yesterday so only had to wait 5 days after the initial release. Whats fun for me is having a sound level read out on the face of the watch and the display is on all the time now.The old watch could display 4 additional readings on the face of the watch, the Series 5 displays 8 additional readouts simultaneously. if you want. Wouldn't it be fun to update your pre-amp in 30 minutes by changing the soft ware and module. I wonder why Mac can't get their act together.

 

[jlovda]

Nothing wrong with a C33. However, the C47 or C2200/2300 will blow it away in terms of features and performance. The preamp is not an area to skimp. Even using an older amp, the more advanced preamps will have an impact.

I own a C33 that has been completely recapped by me and checked by Terry Dewick. 0.008% THD. It's a wonderful preamp and I use it in a second system. The only reasons I use an MX130 for my main preamp is the built-in tuner and wireless remote. I'm retired and getting lazy. The difference between 0.008 and 0.005% is a none issue and both are very quiet.

 

[twiiii]

The 2200/2300 tube pre amps are rated at .08%. Thats 20 db more distortion than .008 %. And the tube pre-amps and in addition the 2200 and 2300 are noisier, too. Reviewers complained about the softness of the phono section of the 2200. I kind of liked it myself. But when Mac tubes for pre-amps are $55.00 a piece and need to be replaced every two years like on my C-20 and C-22, no thanks. I can buy 60 LP's for that kind of money or 33 CD's or downloads off the internet. What does it cost to retune a 275 every two years? Guessing close to a $1000.00. I got rid of my pair of 275's in 74 or 5 because of the price of replacing tubes and Dvie Obrien was installing new tubes every two years at Mac clinics. I admit changing to 2100's and 2200's was a Bad move. But when 7200's came along I knew my dc=300A's and P2sa were obsolete.

 

[62caddy]

Any distortion figure under 1% is a non-issue and that's conservative. Consider oneself extremely lucky if the speakers distort only twice that much and that's before we throw in all the acoustic influences which can be many more times that.

To the OP...my view is the C33 is apt to perform as good as anything under the sun when operating to spec. If you need remote, add a CR7.

 

[damacman]

Any distortion figure under 1% is a non-issue and that's conservative. Consider oneself extremely lucky if the speakers distort only twice that much and that's before we throw in all the acoustic influences which can be many more times that.

To the OP...my view is the C33 is apt to perform as good as anything under the sun when operating to spec. If you need remote, add a CR7.

Science has no place in audio caddy ...

 

[c_dk]

I would "never" promise a client that a change in electronic equipment would "blow away" another piece of equipment.......the assume principle will always seem to rear it's head.

The OP mentions a bass question.

McIntosh EEs have always scrupulously engineered their RIAA eq circuits to strictly follow and adhear to the published, accepted parameters of that equalization standard.

However EEs need to obtain advanced degrees so their have been dozens in not hundreds of thesis and dissertations written, for peer review, about why the RIAA curves are no good, out modded, or have been purposely modified by record companies for evil profit, cutting lathe manufactureres to protect their cutting heads, and any number of audio companies to make their product stand out.

So no one but the OP can really know what will sound good to him.

That being said we can test to see if his turntable is tracking correctly, if a resonance of the tonearm/ cartridge system is adversely affecting it's bass performance.

The same went for the speaker/room interface.

The convience of a remote is oblivious the sound difference between the electronics could be or not be.....only the OP could know.

 

[seacliffe301]

Nothing wrong with a C33. However, the C47 or C2200/2300 will blow it away in terms of features and performance. The preamp is not an area to skimp. Even using an older amp, the more advanced preamps will have an impact.

By performance, do you mean Sound Quality"?
I guess I'm a little skeptical by that notion.

 

[TSmith8605]

. . . tightening things up a bit, especially on the bottom, and having a remote would be nice. What do you all think?

Thanks,
Mike

I think that the most likely causes of bottom-end issues relate to the speakers and the rooms themselves and not the preamp (expect for use of tone controls or EQ controls that the preamp may have to correct those issues). Differences in bass response between preamps would be much more subtle than the interaction of your speakers (you did not say what speakers you have) and your room. Also, low-level feedback into the turntable from the speakers will muddy the bass if the TT is too close to the woofers.

Remotes are nice but I have been listening to good-quality stereos since long before remotes came along and so I am perfectly happy to run my "vintage" system (C22) sans remotes and routinely have to get up and walk across the room once or maybe even twice to tweak something after a record starts (usually volume). My other "main" system has presented me a sea of remote controllers all over the coach and coffee table to deal with but I still need to occasionally get up to tweak something (usually the level of the bass amp relative to the main amp - per the phenomena of bottom-end issues in rooms). In both systems, the record ends after about 20 minutes so I have to get off my butt then anyway - if I'm still awake. (My Dual 1219 is (or is supposed to be) capable of playing six records unattended but I never do that.)

 

[kevzep]

I found after I restored, recapped and did some repairs to my C33, it was still not at the sonic level my C48 is at, its a very different class of sound the newer generation Mc's.
The C33 though is still an excellent pre-amp in its own right though....I kind of regret selling my one, but never mind, I have enough gear...

 

[seacliffe301]

I found after I restored, recapped and did some repairs to my C33, it was still not at the sonic level my C48 is at, its a very different class of sound the newer generation Mc's.
The C33 though is still an excellent pre-amp in its own right though....I kind of regret selling my one, but never mind, I have enough gear...

Hey there Kev, how would you describe the sonic differences between the C33 and C48. I am assuming that you used both preamps with the same amp & speaker configuration.
Not since replacing a C28 with a then current C32 did I ever notice a vastly difference in SQ. Thanks.

 

[kevzep]

Hey there Kev, how would you describe the sonic differences between the C33 and C48. I am assuming that you used both preamps with the same amp & speaker configuration.
Not since replacing a C28 with a then current C32 did I ever notice a vastly difference in SQ. Thanks.

Just a quick reply as I am out on site today, I felt there was a more "velvet" presentation with the delicate details in the extreme top end slightly more forward and smoother, the bass is tighter, end I felt generally it has a more linear response across the full bandwidth, no colour to the sound, and I noticed a darker background....
Instantly noticeable to me...

 

[michael5959]

All, thank you for all the feedback. C_dk, the bass issue I mentioned was not a lack of bass, but rather a "softness." I set up my turntable myself, and spent hours diligently doing so. Could it be better, likely, but I'm reluctant to pay someone to come to me to do it. But if anyone can provide additional tips on optimizing TT tuning on a TD125, I would be greatly appreciative. I am running a Soundsmith Carmen HOMI cartridge, which is exquisite, so I have no need for MC in my preamp at this point. The "tightening" of bass that Kevzep refers to is more of what I was referencing. But I suspect this is an attribute of vintage vs newer equipment. Keeping in mind that my 2255 is also 35 yrs old, I am not convinced that a preamp change alone will get me there, and I really don't want to go on the great chase again. So, I am inclined to stick with what I have on the electronics side. My speakers are Proac 1SC which are delightful, but limited in the bottom register. I think I may be better served at directing my future attention and $$$ towards a speaker upgrade. I have been intrigued with Joseph Audio Pulsars as an upgrade option, but have no dealer in my area, so may need to seek on the used market. So the quest continues. If anyone has additional thoughts and/or tips/tricks on turntable tuning, I would love to hear.

Thanks everyone,
Mike

 

[jlovda]

All, thank you for all the feedback. C_dk, the bass issue I mentioned was not a lack of bass, but rather a "softness." I set up my turntable myself, and spent hours diligently doing so. Could it be better, likely, but I'm reluctant to pay someone to come to me to do it. But if anyone can provide additional tips on optimizing TT tuning on a TD125, I would be greatly appreciative. I am running a Soundsmith Carmen HOMI cartridge, which is exquisite, so I have no need for MC in my preamp at this point. The "tightening" of bass that Kevzep refers to is more of what I was referencing. But I suspect this is an attribute of vintage vs newer equipment. Keeping in mind that my 2255 is also 35 yrs old, I am not convinced that a preamp change alone will get me there, and I really don't want to go on the great chase again. So, I am inclined to stick with what I have on the electronics side. My speakers are Proac 1SC which are delightful, but limited in the bottom register. I think I may be better served at directing my future attention and $$$ towards a speaker upgrade. I have been intrigued with Joseph Audio Pulsars as an upgrade option, but have no dealer in my area, so may need to seek on the used market. So the quest continues. If anyone has additional thoughts and/or tips/tricks on turntable tuning, I would love to hear.

Thanks everyone,
Mike

I hope you don't mind me asking a general question. You stated..."I have been intrigued with Joseph Audio Pulsars as an upgrade option, but have no dealer in my area, so may need to seek on the used market." What makes you "intrigued" assuming you never heard them. Did a friend recommend them? Did you see an advertisement? I'm old and almost all of my equipment purchases were based on dealer demos, back when there was almost an audio store on every corner (at least in Chicago).

 

[michael5959]

I have read extensively about them and the reviews, are almost all universally steller. Users opinions likewise run from very good to great, with most leaning to the right. I also spoke with Jeff Joseph regarding the viability of Pulsars with my room & system, & he indicated that they should be a very good fit. Given that & my desire to stay with monitors has moved me in this direction.

 

[c_dk]

Which tone arm is on your Thorens?

I would invest in a hifi news test record and confirm the actual,in action, dynamic resonance of your tonearm/ cartridge system.

If it doesn't test out in the 8-10 Hz. range it will affect your bass clarity.

I also believe you can never minimize the importance of the stylus tips azimuth or roll if using a aviation term.

The greater the channel seperation the better the stereo image.....SS specs your cartridge out as greater than 26 dB which is very good but not near what we expected to get out our best cartridges we were installing in our clients tables back when the TD125 was still current.

 

[michael5959]

c_dk, arm is a SME 3009 S2 Improved. I moved to this table/arm combo from a TD125/TP16, & the difference was significant. I meticulously went through it to service it, set it up correctly, & replaced the belt. When making the cartridge decision I moved from a Shure V15II with NOS stylus to the SS. Spent several months determining which direction to go with a cartridge upgrade & found the SS on a closeout sale for around 1/2 price, which clinched it for me. The improvement again was significant. I will get the hifi news test record & give it a spin. I am not new to vinyl, but dialing in a cartridge beyond eye balling everything is new to me. Hopefully the test record includes instructions on how to do this. Thanks.

 

[c_dk]

The hifi news record has very good vertacle and horizontal resonance test tracks.....you listen to the tone warble and often can see the arm cartridge vibrating at the resonance frequency.

The tracking tests can be done by ear but I use a osciliscope, both a traditional or a computer based one.

The record does have a marginal test for channel seperation but not near good enough to compare with my 40 year old "for the trade" test records.....I continue to test new modern releases to find replacements.

I have previously posted of my attempt to get Gordon Gow to proclaim that unit x had better SQ than unit b, our very own member Skizo once tried to pin him down during a seminar.

Gow would always defer from that judgement and try to get the owner to focus on those things we could regularly deliver......proper turntable setup and room accoustics analysis.

Most often this would involve him drawing me into the conversation and then volunteering my time for a home visit with my room voicing equipment or a free in store turntable setup, most often both.