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Recapping Tandberg TR1080

DeafbyKhorns

DeafbyKhorns

Active Member
Recapping Tandberg TR2080

Looking for some recommendations on recapping the Tandberg TR2080.
After reviewing the schematic it appears that Tandberg coupled the preamp stages with caps and are not direct coupled like todays amps. So, choosing the right cap will make a huge difference in the sound. I have used Nichicon PW caps with great results but never tried them in the signal path.
You opinions and experiences would be appreciated.
 
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Are you talking about a TR 2080? There was no 1080...

I have to question the sanity of anyone that would blindly modify what is possibly one of the best-sounding receivers of all time... do you really think you as a relative amateur are going to make this design sound better than it did as delivered by some of the best engineers in the audio industry?

I know everyone likes to think "oh, we have better quality parts now" and "oh, they would have used these if they knew about them or if cost constraints didn't make it impractical" etc.

The reality is, those technologies were not unknown when the 2080 was designed, and at $1100-$1200 retail they had a HUGE cost budget. They also had training, resources, and experience that virtually no modern DIYer is likely to be able to match. They also had controlled high-quality production capabilities that resulted in reliable products, not something the average DIYer can lay claim to. When you modify, you raise the failure rate sure as shootin'.

To me, assuming you will make a product (that works as well as the 2080 does) work better simply by upgrading some of the components - without ANY modeling or circuit analysis - is insane and smacks hugely of hubris.

However, I understand that some audiophiles simply can't enjoy the equipment unless they tweak or modify it almost beyond recognition. For me, I'll take the unmolested original every time.

If you are simply replacing aged electrolytics that have lost capacity or dried out over time and are measurably impacting performance, that's one thing. To replace or "upgrade" every cap in the signal path in the blind assumption it will somehow sound better is not supported by logic or science. I'd love to see some double-blind listening comparisons between original versions of some world-class audio gear, and recapped versions.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke!

John

DeafbyKhorns said:
Looking for some recommendations on recapping the Tandberg TR1080.
After reviewing the schematic it appears that Tandberg coupled the preamp stages with caps and are not direct coupled like todays amps. So, choosing the right cap will make a huge difference in the sound. I have used Nichicon PW caps with great results but never tried them in the signal path.
You opinions and experiences would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
 
Personally I would use whatever brand cap that comes closest to duplicating ALL of the specs of the original caps. I've noticed that several of the more knowledgeable members here recommend Panasonic caps in this sort of application.
 
jdurbin1 said:
If you are simply replacing aged electrolytics that have lost capacity or dried out over time and are measurably impacting performance, that's one thing. To replace or "upgrade" every cap in the signal path in the blind assumption it will somehow sound better is not supported by logic or science. I'd love to see some double-blind listening comparisons between original versions of some world-class audio gear, and recapped versions.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke!

John
Click to expand...

jdurbin1- I am replacing only the marginal caps, this receiver is old and electrolytics do have a shelf life. I am not your typical amateur, I have and know how to use all the test equipment including an ESR meter. There are several known capacitors in this receiver that will fail and I have seen fail. The build quality of this receiver is the best I've seen in years which include several mil spec parts. However, I do know from experience that some of the power supply/regulation caps may be in question based on experience. Not sure about the electrolytics in the signal path as they have not been tested yet. I wouldn't expect these to be dry since they are not located near any heat sources or do any serious switching. If you were to send an old McIntosh to the factory for a repair or general checkup, the first thing they check are the caps and they will be replaced.
 
I believe in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". ....especially if it's one of those nice old Tandberg's. No TR 1080? Really? Now, I can't be sure, but I thought they had TR 1030, 1060, 1080 as well as the (awesome) 2080.

If someone want's to go through the trouble of re-capping a signal path: I'm not sure what "PW" is on the Panasonic cap, but if it is an electrolytic cap, it might not be a bad idea to bypass it with a plastic cap. 0.1uF or so. When I say "plastic", I mean mylar, polypropylene, polystyrene, TEFLON, etc. Watch out for the tuning potentiometer on Tandberg's. Tanberg and other European manufacturer's liked to use epoxy (kidding) in place of lubricant. One time a customer came in with a non working 3001 tuner. The "lubricant" had frozen and the customer broke the frame that holds the tuning pot. End of unit. made me cry.:pity:
 
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Would you wait until a timing belt broke on your car damaging valves, pistons and other drive components? I believe in preventive maintenance and that is simply what the topic is about. I'm not looking for exotic caps, simply a cap that will do the job which is close as possible to the stock cap. I probably shouldn't of used the word "recapped". Not interested in bypass caps, just a good low esr cap that will bring the unit back to original condition. I usually use the Nichicon low ESR, high temp caps for the power supply but have not repaired many solid state amps using them in the signal path.
 
For power supply caps I use Panasonic FC
For signal path caps I use Nichicon Muse (KZ) or Elna Silmic II (RFS) if its polarized, nonpolar or coupling I go with Nichicon Muse (ES) or Polypropylene.

Many top of the line modern musical gear use these capacitors.

Here is some info to get you started: http://www.nichicon-us.com/english/products/alm_mini/list_f.htm

You can get Elna Silmic II and Panasonic FC from Digikey, Nichicon Muse from Handmade Electronics or Michael Percy.
 
Hopefully my rant was taken as a philosophic outlook & not a personal attack...

The problem with the timing belt analogy is that the wear and service life of a part like that are considerably more predictable than the service life of a capacitor, not to mention the wear is visible. I'm still inclined to leave things along unless there's some audible or measurable symptom suggesting otherwise.

As for experience, the problem is that reading about this kind of recapping adventure as a fairly routine "upgrade" all too often encourages people - that aren't really qualified - to perform open heart surgery on an innocent piece of perfectly functional vintage electronics.

On the model question, Tandberg's 1000-series TR models were the 1000, 1010, 1020, 1020A, 1040A, 1040P, 1055. No 1060 or 1080. The 2000-series did have TR 2060 and 2080 models of course. Both are superb receivers and again my personal recommendation would be to enjoy them for what they are & only replace parts if necessary.

But, that's just my two cents...

John
 
jdurbin1 said:
Hopefully my rant was taken as a philosophic outlook & not a personal attack...

The problem with the timing belt analogy is that the wear and service life of a part like that are considerably more predictable than the service life of a capacitor, not to mention the wear is visible. I'm still inclined to leave things along unless there's some audible or measurable symptom suggesting otherwise.

As for experience, the problem is that reading about this kind of recapping adventure as a fairly routine "upgrade" all too often encourages people - that aren't really qualified - to perform open heart surgery on an innocent piece of perfectly functional vintage electronics.

On the model question, Tandberg's 1000-series TR models were the 1000, 1010, 1020, 1020A, 1040A, 1040P, 1055. No 1060 or 1080. The 2000-series did have TR 2060 and 2080 models of course. Both are superb receivers and again my personal recommendation would be to enjoy them for what they are & only replace parts if necessary.

But, that's just my two cents...

John
Click to expand...

Din't you forget to mention the TR 2075 and the 2075 mkII.

2075 is a bit sweeter than the 2080.

"dolph"
 
jdurbin1 said:
To me, assuming you will make a product (that works as well as the 2080 does) work better simply by upgrading some of the components - without ANY modeling or circuit analysis - is insane and smacks hugely of hubris.

However, I understand that some audiophiles simply can't enjoy the equipment unless they tweak or modify it almost beyond recognition. For me, I'll take the unmolested original every time.

If you are simply replacing aged electrolytics that have lost capacity or dried out over time and are measurably impacting performance, that's one thing. To replace or "upgrade" every cap in the signal path in the blind assumption it will somehow sound better is not supported by logic or science. I'd love to see some double-blind listening comparisons between original versions of some world-class audio gear, and recapped versions.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke!

John
Click to expand...

Some people.....Just don't like change.

Here's food for thought....I have found this info(link) and experience very helpful and very accurate. My recommendation....go for it....pop that cherry.:thmbsp:

Electrolytic test link

http://highend.puslapiai.lt/?tipstricks/6

Update....I recommend for the money Nichicon Muse Gold......but the absolute best electrolytic cap ever made is the Black Gate....
 
Fast996 said:
Some people.....Just don't like change.

Here's food for thought....I have found this info(link) and experience very helpful and very accurate. My reccomendation....go for it....pop that cherry.:thmbsp:

Electrolytic test link

http://highend.puslapiai.lt/?tipstricks/6
Click to expand...

"Very accurate" based on what? subjective dribble. "These sound dark", "these sound harsh". I see zero quality in these statements. Again, is anybody ready for double blind testing? Any kind of scientific approach? I'd replace caps if they're bad. I might replace caps because some are "cooler" looking, but I'd never make a statement about an improvement in sound quality unless I could demonstrate it over and over again.
 
Jon_Logan said:
"Very accurate" based on what? subjective dribble. "These sound dark", "these sound harsh". I see zero quality in these statements. Again, is anybody ready for double blind testing? Any kind of scientific approach? I'd replace caps if they're bad. I might replace caps because some are "cooler" looking, but I'd never make a statement about an improvement in sound quality unless I could demonstrate it over and over again.
Click to expand...

Our opinions differ.....that's what makes a horse race....I have done plenty of changing caps in signal paths.....big difference....better...to my ear....without a doubt. Try it.....you might be pleasantly surprised.:yes:
 
Fast996 said:
Our opinions differ.....that's what makes a horse race....I have done plenty of changing caps in signal paths.....big difference....better...to my ear....with out a doubt. Try it.....you might be pleasently surprised.:yes:
Click to expand...

Been there done that. I used to be a "believer" in wire,etc. When I started backing up what I "heard" with a scientific approach, the differences went away. I was frustrated and disapointed that the differences weren't there and I tried to make the differences reappear.

Now, if you feel very confident you can prove that functioning cap "A" sounds vastly (or a little different) from cap "B", I don't see what the problem of an ABX or double blind test would be. I am ready to have my mind changed. I think a real test, not relying on sonic memory, would be in order. Is my logic flawed??
 
Jon_Logan said:
Been there done that. I used to be a "believer" in wire,etc. When I started backing up what I "heard" with a scientific approach, the differences went away. I was frustrated and disapointed that the differences weren't there and I tried to make the differences reappear.

Now, if you feel very confident you can prove that functioning cap "A" sounds vastly (or a little different) from cap "B", I don't see what the problem of an ABX or double blind test would be. I am ready to have my mind changed. I think a real test, not relying on sonic memory, would be in order. Is my logic flawed??
Click to expand...

Jon....logic flawed?....not at all.....I will have a Accuphase C200 preamp done next week....in black gate "N" & "NX" series. I am going to AB that against my Nichicon fine gold muse version......your welcome to have a listen....take a trip to the biggest little city....and we will have a interesting blind test.
 
These are preamps, yes?

'Y' connect your source to the two preamps.
Measure the two outputs of your preamps and adjust the gains so that the levels are the same into 10k ohm loads. Use a 400 Hz tone from a tones CD for that. Connect each pair (L/R) of your preamp outputs to a switchbox, where the common goes to your power amp.
Have somebody else switch back and forth and see what you get.

P.S. don't let the switcher let you know which one you are listening to.
 
Jon....I can do that....I will report back...btw I will have a few other listeners so...it should be fun. Yes these are preamps.
 
I think as long as you are happy with the results that is all that matters.

After all, we are talking about capacitors here. The vast majority being less than or close to $1 each, so worst case scenario you can just keep replacing them until you find the ones you like most OR just put the originals back in assuming you keep them like I do.

It's only an investment of a couple of hours work, assuming you are handy with a soldering iron and don't make any mistakes. A lot of people that repair or restore electronics for a living try to talk people out of messing with their gear, but who am I to tell anyone they can't do what they want with their property. If you want to go off roading through a cornfield in your new Lexus, that's your prerogative. Just accept the risk that you may have to end up sending it to a body shop for repairs if things get out of hand...

Good luck to you, whichever route you decide to take.

I look forward to hearing your results!

P.S. I have heard of people recapping one channel of their stereo and doing a mono signal to A/B left vs. right.

[Edit] Just read your link... 9% silver and 0.1% gold solder?! I must be in a different audiosocioeconomic strata to play around with his colorful audio adjectives and $100 capacitors!
 
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