Recommendation on Phono Pre-amp

[knotscott]

I agree you won't get a phono pre that beats it for even double thr price.
Chris

And it's easy enough to modify to take it another level or two.....

 

[cafe latte]

darlington labs MP-7, van alstine vision Q+, sota PYXI, mani 2, possibly ifi zen phono are all phonos about which the same is said. the assertions of quality are a bit stronger regarding the mp-7, vision Q+ and pyxi than the rest.

There are huge mark ups on hifi, dealer mark up is 100% and then there is a distributor mark up before that which again is very large.
The Hagermann sells direct so there are no disributor and retail mark up so you get a massive bargain, this is why few at this price can compete.
Chris

 

[Ilikevinyl]

Musical Surroundings Phonomena II, now in it's III series. Has plenty of loading & gain settings! Dead silent with beautiful sound.

 

[ceylon]

There are huge mark ups on hifi, dealer mark up is 100% and then there is a distributor mark up before that which again is very large.
The Hagermann sells direct so there are no disributor and retail mark up so you get a massive bargain, this is why few at this price can compete.
Chris

as is true with the others i mentioned perhaps all

 

[cafe latte]

as is true with the others i mentioned perhaps all

Looking at the first in your list the Darlington labs. The signal to noise is 78dB a weighted which is average the Hagermann is 86dB a weighted which is exceptional and 100 bucks less and fully adjustable from the front panel. Hagermann is one bloke the other is a company and you are paying for staff. I am sure it is a good pre but it is not as good as the Hagermann and more expensive.
The Hagermann is very accurate 30Hz to 30KHz and stunningly only -3dB 15Hz to 130kHz. Not bad for a phono stage under 300 bucks
The second you mentioned van alstine vision Q+ again more expensive no adjustments for loading extra on front like the Hagermann and no specs which speaks volumes
The sota PYXI, mani 2 has similar specs but no front controls ie lid lift to change things which is a pain in the butt. Probably the best of the bunch though.
Chris

 

[ceylon]

Looking at the first in your list the Darlington labs. The signal to noise is 78dB a weighted which is average the Hagermann is 86dB a weighted which is exceptional and 100 bucks less and fully adjustable from the front panel. Hagermann is one bloke the other is

one or two people. but if more people wanted hagerman bugle he coule pay for more helpers and meet that demand. not having a partner, and not having enough demand to for a helper doesnt make his gear better.

am sure it is a good pre but it is not as good as the Hagermann and more expensive.

fantasy is hardly a measure of quality, sound and performance

The Hagermann is very accurate 30Hz to 30KHz and stunningly only -3dB 15Hz to 130kHz. Not bad for a phono stage under 300 bucks

not bad. in real life, how does it sound and perform compared to the others i mentioned?

The second you mentioned van alstine vision Q+ again more expensive no adjustments for loading extra on front like the Hagermann and no specs which speaks volumes

theres something like 10 switches and a handbook. no, it doesnt speak volumes, but can alstines reputation and designs do; the sonics, performance, customer service and user experience speaks bigger volumes than just a quote on signal to noise ratio.

The sota PYXI, mani 2 has similar specs but no front controls ie lid lift to change things which is a pain in the butt. Probably the best of the bunch though.
Chris

its possible. maybe you can find someone with the experience to better inform you. if u want to hear for yourself, the mani 2 is mass market and available from amazon, IIRC hagerman offers NSA returns, as does van alstine...darlington is only 15 days. dunno if SOTA offers any satisfaction guarantees, but my contact with them has been unsatisfactory at best.

 

[knotscott]

"cafe latte said:
The Hagermann is very accurate 30Hz to 30KHz and stunningly only -3dB 15Hz to 130kHz. Not bad for a phono stage under 300 bucks"

...not bad. in real life, how does it sound and perform compared to the others i mentioned?

On my system, the Hagerman sounds wonderful....very "see through", especially after upgrading the power supply....some improvement from upgraded op amps too, but for < $150, it's phenomenal IMHO. I haven't tried a lot of high price phono stages on my system, but have heard plenty of good ones... IMO its sounds better than than my stock Lazarus phono stage, better than the ART DJ PRE II, better than a modified Pyle. Others who've tried have similar comments.

 

[ceylon]

On my system, the Hagerman sounds wonderful....very "see through", especially after upgrading the power supply....some improvement from upgraded op amps too, but for < $150, it's phenomenal IMHO. I haven't tried a lot of high price phono stages on my system, but have heard plenty of good ones... IMO its sounds better than than my stock Lazarus phono stage, better than the ART DJ PRE II, better than a modified Pyle. Others who've tried have similar comments.

thats fantastic. the new bugle MC looks great @ $259. the loading options include 47kohms so its mm capable. the input capacitance is really high (150pF) by todays standards, so its not suitable for the more popular AT carts that want 100-200pF, but not all MM are so picky. the 2m squeeze into those specs nice.

 

[krichard2496]

Looking at the first in your list the Darlington labs. The signal to noise is 78dB a weighted which is average the Hagermann is 86dB a weighted which is exceptional and 100 bucks less and fully adjustable from the front panel. Hagermann is one bloke the other is a company and you are paying for staff. I am sure it is a good pre but it is not as good as the Hagermann and more expensive.
The Hagermann is very accurate 30Hz to 30KHz and stunningly only -3dB 15Hz to 130kHz. Not bad for a phono stage under 300 bucks
The second you mentioned van alstine vision Q+ again more expensive no adjustments for loading extra on front like the Hagermann and no specs which speaks volumes
The sota PYXI, mani 2 has similar specs but no front controls ie lid lift to change things which is a pain in the butt. Probably the best of the bunch though.
Chris

Average vs. exceptional vs. stunning is quite a broadly-reaching analysis. Thank you, to an extent, for your praise. Now, if you've measured the S/N of these various products yourself, not with the traditional 1K or 0-ohm input load, but with a real-world-high-inductance MM-level cartridge, and compared the total actual S/N both measured and perceived, in typical use, including the slope of the residual noise, as a user would employ it, we invite you to share your results. If you have checked the -3dB LF response down to 2Hz it will give a good sense of phase shift in the LF audible spectrum (leaving aside comments about it not being important), and it would also be good to consider whether any subsonic filtering is switchable by the user or is fixed and not adjustable) for units currently being shipped by any manufacturer in play. Lastly, and just as a time-limited quick comment, ranking the distortion spectra with a properly ear-weighted residual such as N^4 would probably be a very valuable, and perhaps even counter-intuitive result, or addendum, to your existing analysis.

In our view, if you are looking to purchase a phono preamp based on specs as measured by some current "objective" websites, i.e., not weighted according to the ear, as has been consistently recommended since 1937, with strong additional research papers in 1949 and 1961, and you don't listen to LPs very much, or maybe at all like some review website head honchos (who are instead beholden to their recommended superior-to-all-else MQA encoding) then we suggest that it is quite hard to beat a simple 5534 active design running on high voltage rails. The 1979-era design in the Mac C33 is a great example with that just-released chip, and their implementation is even lower thermal noise than the common modern D. Self textbook designs. The R_tel company has a great low-cost medium-impedance (dual 5532) in their 1570 preamp, the Solo and Duo measure great with high-bias-current discrete BJT front ends - when driven by a short circuit (no cartridge) they are almost completely silent (measured in practice with a real cartridge is not something we'll discuss). The older related British units (the 651, 551, 540 and derivatives) are available used and quite inexpensive and typically feature full-time, sharp-cutoff, non-defeatable subsonic filters. For running your phono preamp with shorting plugs (instead of a signal), parking your tonearm at the side of the turntable, and cranking your gain way way up, it's hard to imagine anything much better that still remains very reasonably priced.

For simple DIY, a native 5534, i.e., without a discrete BJT front end, even has fairly good measured performance with an inductive (conventional) MM cartridge - although the noise spectra is tilted significantly to the highest frequencies. There is a published 1987 design in Wireless World which features a discrete-input DIY MC head-amp and the accompanying analysis shows it also measures very well, on conventional metrics, with a signal generator as a source. Designs are out in the marketplace in pretty large numbers, some even copied exactly from 40 year old articles like the original planet-named model from the Traffic-Sign-Named TT company. DIY probably would seem to offer lower (depreciated) overhead than most any comparable commercial option. Most music is now available in digital format whether streaming or on used CDs.

Just because many commercial FM radio stations currently play high-res needle-drops recorded with very high-end gear, nearly exclusively, based on real-world Arbitron cut-by-cut monitoring of listeners, in some sense, Why spend more for specialist designs or unique topologies? Vinyl is considered by some to be an outmoded technology which itself measures very very poorly on conventional tests - as much as 5 to 10% second- and third-order distortion. Initial tests showed 16 bit/44.1k measured stunningly and 42 years hasn't really changed that. And how much better is that than, for many years, the BBC using 13 bit non-linear 32kHz digital (w/companding) for their STL links. For static test tones, and no complex or even lightly-aurally-weighted analysis, conventional design, high feedback and op-amps for phono preamps really seem to point the way, very inexpensively from a manufacturing standpoint, as has been done for many decades.

 

[justjed2]

I use specifications for general comparisons. I don't necessarily know, or even care, how they were measured, or whose measurements are more important. What IS important, is that nothing you can measure will tell me how it's going to sound in my room, with my gear. Specs are even less useful at telling me whether I will like the sound, in my room, with my gear.

I've had my MP-7 for about 6 months. I bought it because I agree with the design philosophies, no feedback, high voltage J-FETs, a serious power supply, etc. I've not been disappointed. The sound is better than any previous pre I've had, and as good, if not better, than my personal reference, the phono-stage of the Kenwood Basic C2. With a SUT, and LOMC cart, it's the most satisfying vinyl sound I've had in my room. Ever.

Specs are great for comparisons. You ears should make the choice for you.

 

[cafe latte]

Average vs. exceptional vs. stunning is quite a broadly-reaching analysis. Thank you, to an extent, for your praise. Now, if you've measured the S/N of these various products yourself, not with the traditional 1K or 0-ohm input load, but with a real-world-high-inductance MM-level cartridge, and compared the total actual S/N both measured and perceived, in typical use, including the slope of the residual noise, as a user would employ it, we invite you to share your results. If you have checked the -3dB LF response down to 2Hz it will give a good sense of phase shift in the LF audible spectrum (leaving aside comments about it not being important), and it would also be good to consider whether any subsonic filtering is switchable by the user or is fixed and not adjustable) for units currently being shipped by any manufacturer in play. Lastly, and just as a time-limited quick comment, ranking the distortion spectra with a properly ear-weighted residual such as N^4 would probably be a very valuable, and perhaps even counter-intuitive result, or addendum, to your existing analysis.

In our view, if you are looking to purchase a phono preamp based on specs as measured by some current "objective" websites, i.e., not weighted according to the ear, as has been consistently recommended since 1937, with strong additional BBC research papers in 1949 and 1961, and you don't listen to LPs very much, or maybe at all like some review website head honchos (who are instead beholden to their recommended superior-to-all-else MQA encoding) then we suggest that it is quite hard to beat a simple 5534 active design running on high voltage rails. The 1979-era design in the Mac C33 is a great example with that just-released chip, and their implementation is even lower thermal noise than the common modern D. Self textbook designs. The R_tel company has a great low-cost medium-impedance (dual 5532) in their 1570 preamp, the Solo and Duo measure great with high-bias-current discrete BJT front ends - when driven by a short circuit (no cartridge) they are almost completely silent (measured in practice with a real cartridge is not something we'll discuss). The older related British units (the 651, 551, 540 and derivatives) are available used and quite inexpensive. For running your phono preamp with shorting plugs (instead of a signal), parking your tonearm at the side of the turnable, and cranking your gain way way up, there is almost nothing better.

For simple DIY, a native 5534, i.e., without a discrete BJT front end, even has fairly good measured performance with an inductive (conventional) MM cartridge - although the noise spectra is tilted significantly to the highest frequencies. There is a published 1987 design in Wireless World which features a discrete-input DIY MC head-amp and the accompanying analysis shows it also measures very well, on conventional metrics, with a signal generator as a source. Designs are out in the marketplace in pretty large numbers, some even copied exactly from 40 year old articles like the original planet-named model from the Traffic-Sign-Named TT company. DIY probably would seem to offer lower (depreciated) overhead than most any comparable commercial option. Most music is now available in digital format whether streaming or on used CDs.

Just because many commerical FM radio stations play high-res needle-drops recorded with very high-end gear, nearly exclusively, based on real-world Arbitron cut-by-cut monitoring of listeners, in some sense, Why spend more for specialist designs or unique topologies? Vinyl is considered by some to be an outmoded technology which itself measures very very poorly on conventional tests - as much as 5 to 10% second- and third-order distortion. Initial tests showed 16 bit/44.1k measured stunningly and 42 years hasn't really changed that. For static test tones, and no complex or even lightly-aurally-weighted analysis, conventional design, high feedback and op-amps really seem to point the way.

Specs are not everything, but it is part of thr story and 78 is not that great in my opinion.
Hagermann posts here on AK I am sure he will chime in. His pre has been around a long time and it us well tested.
All the best
Chris

 

[ceylon]

Specs are not everything, but it is part of thr story and 78 is not that great in my opinion.

specs are part of the story, but u gotta be kidding. a $300 opamp phono is the best thing under a grand, a $500 jfet phono with passive EQ is "not that great?"

what about the $600 hagerman cornet (78dB, tube) or the $1300 hagerman trumnpet MC (70db, jfet/tube)? not that great, neither?

gimme a break.

 

[MisterDK]

specs are part of the story, but u gotta be kidding. a $300 opamp phono is the best thing under a grand, a $500 jfet phono with passive EQ is "not that great?"

what about the $600 hagerman cornet (78dB, tube) or the $1300 hagerman trumnpet MC (70db, jfet/tube)? not that great, neither?

gimme a break.

I’m curious; have you listened to the Hagerman Cornet3..? - BTW - I think the gain on those is around 44dB, using two 12AX7’s and one 12AU7.

Asking ‘cause I had fun, recently building a 834 clone - and was thinking about the Cornet kit next. The 834 clone sounds really (really!) nice, BTW - much more important to me than measured specs…

 

[ceylon]

I’m curious; have you listened to the Hagerman Cornet3..? - BTW - I think the gain on those is around 44dB, using two 12AX7’s and one 12AU7.

Asking ‘cause I had fun, recently building a 834 clone - and was thinking about the Cornet kit next. The 834 clone sounds really (really!) nice, BTW - much more important to me than measured specs…

i havent. it was on my list but i bought a finished ear clone in stead. then i got a tavish vintage.

as far as i know there hasnt been a cornet kit for a coupla years. but i got a coupla ikido kits, and im really excited to get started on em in a coupla weeks.

 

[MisterDK]

i havent. it was on my list but i bought a finished ear clone in stead. then i got a tavish vintage.

as far as i know there hasnt been a cornet kit for a coupla years. but i got a coupla ikido kits, and im really excited to get started on em in a coupla weeks.

I see the a PCB and instructions w schematic, for sale on his website - called the Cornet3.
I think the latest finished one is now gen. 4 and called the Cornet MM. Wondering if it could sound even better than my 834 clone…

Duane

 

[cafe latte]

specs are part of the story, but u gotta be kidding. a $300 opamp phono is the best thing under a grand, a $500 jfet phono with passive EQ is "not that great?"

what about the $600 hagerman cornet (78dB, tube) or the $1300 hagerman trumnpet MC (70db, jfet/tube)? not that great, neither?

gimme a break.

I would rather the solid state, the valve version is nice but not close to flat.
Chris

 

[rothwellaudio]

I haven't tried a lot of high price phono stages on my system, but have heard plenty of good ones... IMO its sounds better than than my stock Lazarus phono stage, better than the ART DJ PRE II, better than a modified Pyle.

I have no knowledge of the Lazarus, but the ART DJ and Pyle are truly as about as cheap and basic as it gets, so performing better than them isn't exactly proof of anything much imho.

 

[knotscott]

I have no knowledge of the Lazarus, but the ART DJ and Pyle are truly as about as cheap and basic as it gets, so performing better than them isn't exactly proof of anything much imho.

Neither is your reply, but if it helps you feel better saying so, have at it...

 

[rothwellaudio]

Neither is your reply, but if it helps you feel better saying so, have at it...

Just adding some context. Sorry that it upset you so much.