• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Reel to Reel whats the deal?

Mearle

Mearle

Active Member
So I am new to this thread on tape, although I am not unfamiliar with 3 head casete players and have calibrated many....

Here is my question: is there any place in an audiophile's arsenal for medium to high end reel to reel tape machines? Is there any use for them? I thought not, but I visited a vintage audio collector, who happened to have many many reel to reel machines and they looked amazing, some studio quality and down from there....

I sort of told him "I dont do tape anymore". but I listened to one recording and it sounded so clear with no hiss S/N , I had to then 2nd guess myself and think, if I could add a nice reel to reel machine to my source arsenal, would that make any sense? they look beautiful and I felt sad to see this guy with such a wonderful collection of R to Reels that may wind up in the dump.... very interested in audiophile comments ... thx, Mearle
 
Register to hide this ad
I just recently picked up my first reel-to-reel and a bunch of tapes. Was surprised by how good they sounded, especially since one of them was an FM radio recording of New Years Eve 1979 - the ads were fun to listen to. Besides the cool factor and excellent sound quality, the recording length is a plus compared to cd and cassette, but streaming or digital library can do that as simpler options. I guess for me it's just something that I saw growing up and always wanted to try.
 
I find the allure and pull to tape media very strong. People love to crap all over tape and R2R these days, even with it's popularity exploding. If your happy sitting in your Lazy Boy and your music is fine, don't bother but if you love bad-ass audio equipment that takes some setting up and occasional maintenance, go for it.

Most tape mediums can be dialed into sonic bliss but it might take some practice and fine tuning of the equipment. If you enjoy working for your music, it's very satisfying. R2R is kind of the last vintage audio frontier, 20 years ago we were saving vintage amps and turntables then five years ago, cassette got popular again, now it's R2R's turn.

I don't think your friends collection will be worthless, equipment pricing is really going up. I've heard that bands are embracing tape media for recording, I'm not sure if they're using R2R as part of the chain but it wouldn't surprise me. Vintage Audio Equipment is showing up more and more in bars and restaurants, R2R plays forever and it looks cool, I'm sure having one fits that scene as well.

Good luck, I still see machines but not nearly as much as 10-20 years ago, unfortunately I think a lot were tossed out.
 
A lot of these older machines need servicing. It's tough to find someone to do it if you can't do it yourself. I had a few reel to reels back in the day and there is an allure to them. Fun to record and then sit back and listen.
 
If you have buckets of cash laying around and lots of room for these giant machines than R2R could be for you. The coolness factor is probably higher than any other audio statement piece except maybe floor to ceiling sized speakers. Although I specialize in repairing top of the line Nakamichi cassette decks, which can leave a lot of lower end R2R in the dust, the upper echelon open reel decks are untouchable, especially at 7.5" speeds and above. No other tape can match its performance. I had an open reel Teac a long time ago and yeah, it was super cool and fun to play with, but in the end I just didn't use it much. My problem with open reel is mainly its size. I don't have any room for these giant machines in my current audio setup. I can't even fit one more piece of normal size gear in the cabinet I now have. The other issue I have with the format is one of practical use. Unless you are a musician laying down your own tracks, what are you going to record on this format? CD's or vinyl? A high end cassette can do that job much cheaper and without taking up vast amounts of real estate. Yes, unlike cassette, high quality, new tape is being produced, but it is very pricey. And running the machines at 7.5 or 15 ips where the performance is at quickly eats that reel up. To each his own. I don't disparage anyone for getting into open reel as it is a really cool format with absolute best quality potential. Just understand it is big money to keep it supported. My two cents.
 
nakmandan said:
I don't disparage anyone for getting into open reel as it is a really cool format with absolute best quality potential. Just understand it is big money to keep it supported.
Click to expand...

Agree fully with the former, less so regarding the latter. In that my investment into R2R is a tiny fraction of what I've spent on vinyl gear over the years. Not even close. Respecting my audiophile leanings a HS 2 track machine of course.
 
nakmandan said:
If you have buckets of cash laying around and lots of room for these giant machines than R2R could be for you. The coolness factor is probably higher than any other audio statement piece except maybe floor to ceiling sized speakers. Although I specialize in repairing top of the line Nakamichi cassette decks, which can leave a lot of lower end R2R in the dust, the upper echelon open reel decks are untouchable, especially at 7.5" speeds and above. No other tape can match its performance. I had an open reel Teac a long time ago and yeah, it was super cool and fun to play with, but in the end I just didn't use it much. My problem with open reel is mainly its size. I don't have any room for these giant machines in my current audio setup. I can't even fit one more piece of normal size gear in the cabinet I now have. The other issue I have with the format is one of practical use. Unless you are a musician laying down your own tracks, what are you going to record on this format? CD's or vinyl? A high end cassette can do that job much cheaper and without taking up vast amounts of real estate. Yes, unlike cassette, high quality, new tape is being produced, but it is very pricey. And running the machines at 7.5 or 15 ips where the performance is at quickly eats that reel up. To each his own. I don't disparage anyone for getting into open reel as it is a really cool format with absolute best quality potential. Just understand it is big money to keep it supported. My two cents.
Click to expand...
So guys, thank you for such a good consensus, sounds like everyone agrees, that the "cool factor" is a main thing pro, size/realestate is a concern, but I dont have tat concern, servicing is a concern, but I dont have that and am familliar with head alignment... BUT in this post from Nakmandan, you/he says 7.5 and 15 " is a preferred spec'd capability, ... which is good to know, I get why the higher speeds would be desireable.

SO NOW THAT I HEAR THAT NOBODY HATES THEM AND THAT THEY ARE PRETTY COOL, .... i AM GOING TO SEE THIS GUY WHO HAS A BUNCH OF THEM, ASIDE FROM THE SPEED ASPECT, ARE THERE ANY PARTICULAR BRANDS THAT ARE DESIREABLE OR NOT DESIREABLE, OR OTHER ASPECTS THAT WILL HELP ME TO PICK THE CREAM OF THE CROP? SOME OF THE MODELS THAT HE HAS LOOK STUDIO QUALITY AND IN MINT CONDITION AND I AM NOW THINKIG OF PERSUING THE R2R PIECE.

I AM NOT SO SURE ABOUT THE SOUND QUALITY LEVEL VS CD-LP'S & HD STREAMING, I "THINK" MY APPLICATION WOULD BE TO MIX SOME LONG PLAYING PLAY LIST FROM HI RES SOURCES.... BUT i ALWAYS "THOUGHT" THAT TAPE MEDIA WAS SUB STANDARD TO CD/LP'S. THEN THINKING ABOUT IT OF COURSE, ALL THE PAST MASTER RECORDINGS WERE TAPE, SO IT SHOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH..

FOR NOW I WILL GO SEE HIM, LET HIM TELL ME ABOUT THEM, AND TAKE NOTES ON THE VARIOUS MODELS AND REPORT BACK, ALTHOUGH HE MAY JUST GIVE ME ONE TO "TRY OUT" HE SEEMS LIKE A NICE GUY WITH JUST WAYYYY TOO MUCH VINTAGE AUDIO EQUIPMENT, ALTHOUGH HE DOES SEEM TO KNOW WHAT THINGS ARE WORTH....

ANY FURTHER ADVICE TO GET ME TO SECOND BASE BEFORE I GO VEIWING WOULD BE HELPFUL AND APPRECIATED..... MODELS/FEATURES/MODEL YEARS IN PARTICULAR... THX ALL MEARLE
 
Legrace said:
Agree fully with the former, less so regarding the latter. In that my investment into R2R is a tiny fraction of what I've spent on vinyl gear over the years. Not even close. Respecting my audiophile leanings a HS 2 track machine of course.
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting I should be looking for a 2 track machine if available from a "better specification" standpoint? I dont even know what the benefit of a 2 track would be, ... I can only make sense of an audio "stereo" source, what does 2 track achieve? that question makes me sound pretty green, but what the heck, appreciate the advice....
 
Specification wise yes. 2T x 15 ips can deliver SQ superior to vinyl, CD, streaming. Consumer R2R machines typically are 4T and 2T versions. A 4T machine splits the tape into 4 track lanes. You record your L/R audio onto 2 of the lanes, and when you get to the end of the tape you flip the tape over and record another record or whatever source onto the other 2 lanes. Because of this you get double the recording time versus a 2T machine which splits the tape into 2 lanes only. The tradeoff is you sacrifice SQ for recording duration. Not only is freq range less and s/n worse more annoying is the issue of crosstalk. This is where you can hear the other lanes you recorded even though you're not playing them, ie the sound bleeding over. Very faint, but a common recognized issue. Non issue with 2T machine. So if SQ is paramount, 2T machine should be selected.

Brands there are a lot of good ones. Heads condition and overall condition are more important selection criteria.
 
I suggest looking for a Teac A series machine. They seem to combine robust construction, decent electronics, plentiful parts, and serviceability. They produced 1/2 track and 1/4 track machines, and also 15ips models. None of them will break the bank.

I have 1/4 track machines and record at 7.5ips, and the hiss and crosstalk are never noticed by me. I am not a super critical listener though.
 
Mearle said:
So guys, thank you for such a good consensus, sounds like everyone agrees, that the "cool factor" is a main thing pro, size/realestate is a concern, but I dont have tat concern, servicing is a concern, but I dont have that and am familliar with head alignment... BUT in this post from Nakmandan, you/he says 7.5 and 15 " is a preferred spec'd capability, ... which is good to know, I get why the higher speeds would be desireable.

SO NOW THAT I HEAR THAT NOBODY HATES THEM AND THAT THEY ARE PRETTY COOL, .... i AM GOING TO SEE THIS GUY WHO HAS A BUNCH OF THEM, ASIDE FROM THE SPEED ASPECT, ARE THERE ANY PARTICULAR BRANDS THAT ARE DESIREABLE OR NOT DESIREABLE, OR OTHER ASPECTS THAT WILL HELP ME TO PICK THE CREAM OF THE CROP? SOME OF THE MODELS THAT HE HAS LOOK STUDIO QUALITY AND IN MINT CONDITION AND I AM NOW THINKIG OF PERSUING THE R2R PIECE.

I AM NOT SO SURE ABOUT THE SOUND QUALITY LEVEL VS CD-LP'S & HD STREAMING, I "THINK" MY APPLICATION WOULD BE TO MIX SOME LONG PLAYING PLAY LIST FROM HI RES SOURCES.... BUT i ALWAYS "THOUGHT" THAT TAPE MEDIA WAS SUB STANDARD TO CD/LP'S. THEN THINKING ABOUT IT OF COURSE, ALL THE PAST MASTER RECORDINGS WERE TAPE, SO IT SHOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH..

FOR NOW I WILL GO SEE HIM, LET HIM TELL ME ABOUT THEM, AND TAKE NOTES ON THE VARIOUS MODELS AND REPORT BACK, ALTHOUGH HE MAY JUST GIVE ME ONE TO "TRY OUT" HE SEEMS LIKE A NICE GUY WITH JUST WAYYYY TOO MUCH VINTAGE AUDIO EQUIPMENT, ALTHOUGH HE DOES SEEM TO KNOW WHAT THINGS ARE WORTH....

ANY FURTHER ADVICE TO GET ME TO SECOND BASE BEFORE I GO VEIWING WOULD BE HELPFUL AND APPRECIATED..... MODELS/FEATURES/MODEL YEARS IN PARTICULAR... THX ALL MEARLE
Click to expand...

My opinion. Assuming base quality between machines head wear is the most important thing to note. Head wear if it is noticeable will be the problem if it is a problem, best to chose one that has very little head wear if any, many machines will have few hours of use. Faster tape speed results in more head wear for a given amount of use compared to lower speeds. Yes, higher tape speeds above 7 1/2 is ideal for high performance recording and play yet 7 1/2 quarter track is very very good by most any measurement except signal to noise ratio concerning hiss and possibly cross talk between tracks during quiet passages, most music will mask the hiss and cross talk with proper head alignment in my experience is not really a factor. Three heads is a given and the machine should be biased and electronically adjusted, eq, bias and level set, for the tape type, oxide formulation in use. Many people use these machines without ever having them biased for a particular tape type and never know the difference, and there is a difference yet many are perfectly happy with factory settings for what ever tape type the manufacturer used. A decent three head machine running at 7 1/2 will record your CDs and high res streaming confidently, some prefer the tape to the source. Two track provides slightly better signal to noise ratio at any speed and cross talk is all but eliminated, higher tape speed improves everything at cost of tape and somewhat increased maintenance, mechanical wear of tape path. I would buy a quarter track with little or no head wear, three heads, three motors and at least two speeds of 3 3/4 and 7 1/5 ips.
 
spicer said:
Two track provides slightly better signal to noise ratio at any speed and cross talk is all but eliminated, higher tape speed improves everything at cost of tape and somewhat increased maintenance, mechanical wear of tape path. I would buy a quarter track with little or no head wear, three heads, three motors and at least two speeds of 3 3/4 and 7 1/5 ips.
Click to expand...

Cross talk all but eliminated, umm its not even possible because there are no adjacent tracks, so zero possibility. I have owned quarter track in the past and no way I would own one now.
 
My reason for having a reel to reel after 50 + years of listening to music is the nostalgic/ history of same and the visual factor. At other sites you will get endless annoying pontificating about differences of what is Studio versus Professional versus Consumer. What I have settled on are decks that after recording and playback of an excellent CD source sound really good to me compared to the original…I do realize that they are very cool to me to watch in action and that is their real draw at this point. I also know “ Professional” decks acquired to have as ego boosters will never exceed the higher level digital media resolution available today…but that’s not why a lot of us continue to fall in love with older equipment and the memories…. BTW if any one has a Tascam ATR 60-2 for sale..give me a call.
 
Legrace said:
Cross talk all but eliminated, umm its not even possible because there are no adjacent tracks, so zero possibility. I have owned quarter track in the past and no way I would own one now.
Click to expand...

I said all but eliminated owing to cross channel cross talk which however slight does exist on a two track machine. Honestly though, I've never heard cross talk on a properly aligned four track machine of some quality, reference something like a Teac A2300s. It is understood, if you're really into it two track at 15 ips is the way to go.
 
ok guys so I went to see this guys arsenal of R2R's he must have had 25 of them... on a general look, I liked the 10" reel size, bigger is better... longer play time and more sexy looking.
I liked mostly for the aesthetics the Sony model TC-766-2 ... so many and so confusing, but someway I did like that Sony model. (looks photo below)

Other models, all are apparently tuned and perfect yea ok BUT I am fine to maintain them and adjust azimuth if I need to re-learn it all..:
Sony TC-766-2, 10" liked this one best!!! photo below
Sony TC-788-4 (quadraphonic, dont care about quad, dsnt make sense to me never did + more to go wrong?)
Teac 3300S 10" Liked this one second, but didnt look as cool as the Sony TC-766
Teac 4000DB
Akai 4000DS lots of 4000's looks like 8"
Akai GX-630D 10"
Dokorder 1120
Akai 635D
Phillips N4504
too many to list actually and I know I cant talk $ here, just talking about performance, he is not throwing them out for nothing just a performance and one time "buy the best" kinda of thing.... and need advice.
upload_2023-3-2_22-47-57.png
 
Mearle said:
ok guys so I went to see this guys arsenal of R2R's he must have had 25 of them... on a general look, I liked the 10" reel size, bigger is better... longer play time and more sexy looking.
I liked mostly for the aesthetics the Sony model TC-766-2 ... so many and so confusing, but someway I did like that Sony model. (looks photo below)

Other models, all are apparently tuned and perfect yea ok BUT I am fine to maintain them and adjust azimuth if I need to re-learn it all..:
Sony TC-766-2, 10" liked this one best!!! photo below
Sony TC-788-4 (quadraphonic, dont care about quad, dsnt make sense to me never did + more to go wrong?)
Teac 3300S 10" Liked this one second, but didnt look as cool as the Sony TC-766
Teac 4000DB
Akai 4000DS lots of 4000's looks like 8"
Akai GX-630D 10"
Dokorder 1120
Akai 635D
Phillips N4504
too many to list actually and I know I cant talk $ here, just talking about performance, he is not throwing them out for nothing just a performance and one time "buy the best" kinda of thing.... and need advice.
View attachment 2815674
Click to expand...

That's a fine machine. Working correctly you'll be happy with it. The Teac is also a good choice but the Sony is the best choice in my opinion.
 
so, i think I might go for the R2R, just because of all the positive accolades and everyone doing it for the "cool&beauty" factor and because we can....
QUESTION/Opinions, if I pump/record a 192Khz HiRes audio source to the R2R analog, what will I likely be able to capture in the analog recording?
I dont even know if High quality Analog RCA cables will choke the high res 192K sampling rate, I do or think I know that both Coax and Optical can not pass that bandwidth without choking it out.
I suppose it may not matter too much, since in my past testing, I dont seem to be able to discern difference between SACD 192Khz vs a normal 44K?Hz normal CD source,
But I am guessing that the R2R will NOT capture the 92 or 192Khz HiRes part?

Thank you for all of your help, Mearle....
 
spicer said:
That's a fine machine. Working correctly you'll be happy with it. The Teac is also a good choice but the Sony is the best choice in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Thanks Spicer, well the Sony just looks nicer, I like the non mechanical, solenoid controls, and ascetics of them + meters and overall the fit and finish, it is a bit more expensive but its like a buy it once deal is how I am looking at it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom