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Rega and Thorens TD160

S

sns109

New Member
I am in the midst of fitting a Rega RB 250 arm to a Thorens TD160, I would warn others not to attempt to fit a Rega arm to a TD160 (and perhaps the other spring suspended Thorens) unless they are prepared for compromise and much modification of any armboard.
Essentially, the Rega arms are too tall for the Thorens. For correct VTA, the base of the Rega needs to be .32mm (1.25in) below the height of a record on the platter. On my Thorens (I assume on the other Thorens models) this requires the Rega to be mounted essentially at plinth level, doing this requires a lot of mods to any custom armboard I've seen, and mounting here gives very little clearance both to subchassis and plinth.
Now, I can assume one could reach somewhat correct VTA with these unmodified custom armboards by using shims on cartridge mount, super thick platter mats and taller cartridges than normal, all compromises from optimum setup in my book. If you think the various VTA adjusters are going to help, forget it, they are simply going to add height to the arm, the exact opposite of what you want.
I've seen much criticism in various forums of using Rega's on Thorens, I suspect improper VTA is the culprit here as I've yet to see a post in regard to attaining proper VTA. This is mind boggling to me, is there something unique about my setup, I doubt it. We DIY's need this kind of information, come on people, don't do inferior setups and then simply complain about the sound!
As it is, I don't even know if I will attain:nono: a satisfactory outcome on this, even with the mods on the armboard I'm still about an eight of an inch too tall. I will still have to get a way thick platter mat, and a bearing thrust pad I have will add further to platter height, this will bring VTA very close to optimum.
If anyone out there has a Rega mounted (with correct VTA) to a spring suspended Thorens I would certainly like to hear from them.
Scott
 
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Wow. They sell Rega arm boards for these old Thorens and no where does it say the height is a problem. Good to know. I wanted to put a RB300 on my 147 until a guy who works on these said the 147 would be a problem due to the auto shut off circuit board.
 
sns109 said:
I am in the midst of fitting a Rega RB 250 arm to a Thorens TD160, I would warn others not to attempt to fit a Rega arm to a TD160 (and perhaps the other spring suspended Thorens) unless they are prepared for compromise and much modification of any armboard.
Essentially, the Rega arms are too tall for the Thorens. For correct VTA, the base of the Rega needs to be .32mm (1.25in) below the height of a record on the platter. On my Thorens (I assume on the other Thorens models) this requires the Rega to be mounted essentially at plinth level, doing this requires a lot of mods to any custom armboard I've seen, and mounting here gives very little clearance both to subchassis and plinth.
Now, I can assume one could reach somewhat correct VTA with these unmodified custom armboards by using shims on cartridge mount, super thick platter mats and taller cartridges than normal, all compromises from optimum setup in my book. If you think the various VTA adjusters are going to help, forget it, they are simply going to add height to the arm, the exact opposite of what you want.
I've seen much criticism in various forums of using Rega's on Thorens, I suspect improper VTA is the culprit here as I've yet to see a post in regard to attaining proper VTA. This is mind boggling to me, is there something unique about my setup, I doubt it. We DIY's need this kind of information, come on people, don't do inferior setups and then simply complain about the sound!
As it is, I don't even know if I will attain:nono: a satisfactory outcome on this, even with the mods on the armboard I'm still about an eight of an inch too tall. I will still have to get a way thick platter mat, and a bearing thrust pad I have will add further to platter height, this will bring VTA very close to optimum.
If anyone out there has a Rega mounted (with correct VTA) to a spring suspended Thorens I would certainly like to hear from them.
Scott
Click to expand...
I personally didn't answer your previous post because I found it to be rather confusing, to read, and so I didn't understand your problem sufficiently.

If I am understanding you correctly, then it sounds to me like the base of your arm is too deep for your plinth. If this is correct, then you may well be correct that the Rega is not an optimal match for the TD-160.

If I were to try to make this combination work, I would construct a new plinth for the TD-160 that is both deeper, and beefier than the original. You may well actually improve the sonics of the table itself by doing this too.
 
braxus said:
Wow. They sell Rega arm boards for these old Thorens and no where does it say the height is a problem. Good to know. I wanted to put a RB300 on my 147 until a guy who works on these said the 147 would be a problem due to the auto shut off circuit board.
Click to expand...
The 147 is not a good choice to add a new arm to. To remove the original arm from the relatively rare 147s almost constutes a crime in my book, as you will necesarily destroy the auto shut-off feature in the process. The 147 is one of the few genuinely high-quality semi-auto belt drives ever made. So doing this really constitutes ruining it in my book. :sigh:

Yes, the stock thorens arm may not be the best arm in the world. But it is far from the worst either.

You would be better off selling your 147 and pocketing the nice premium that this model enjoys over similar thorens models from the sale and just start with a different table (maybe even upgrade while you are at it too). By contrast the TD-160s are a dime a dosen. So modifying one of these is not unthinkable.
 
further along on fitting arm

Well I finally have the tonearm to platter height within specs (32mm). To do this I had to modify the custom arm board by milling 1/8th inch off the top, and milling a further 3/16 off the legs (legs raise the armboard above the subchassis), the base of the arm now sits level with top/flace plate (what I formerly called plinth, sorry if that caused some confusion). Now the problem is that the tightening nut (rega arm to armboard) is an interference fit with the subchassis (nut is too thick), so the nut will have to be milled down so as to not interfere.
At this point I believe I may have the static vta set to where I have some allowance for increasing tonearm height, thus, be able to use one of the adjustable vta devices!
Anyone contemplating fitting a Rega to a Thorens, think twice, it's a PTA!
I see a lot of guys fitting the SME 3009, are there the same issues with VTA facing this setup?
 
plinth and other mods

By the way, I did construct a plinth out of 2" quilted cherry, top plate is inset into top of plinth so that is supported all the way around, rather than by tacked on pieces of wood I've seen in many plinths. Other mods include Extreme Dynamat on subchassis, bearing housing, around motor, 3m Audio Additives vibration pads on subchassis at arm mount, same pads on underside of custom armboard, rewired for IEC receptacle (Furutech), Incognito wire on Rega, bearing support pad, main bearing oil and drive belt from srm-tech.co.uk. Tweaking suspension to no end to get level and correct bounce. BDR cones for support (screwed into plinth so there is some leveling capability). I also constructed my own wall/stud mounted shelf made from 1 1/2" maple.
I will probably use the Herbies TT mat, various thickness to further key in my VTA.
 
I put a series III on a td 160.The only hard part was makeing a custom armboard.The instructions were on the net though and i made one in two tries about a hour in total.No problem with vta as long as you make the arm board 1/2 a inch.Mabybe a bit more3/4 of a inch was too thick.
 
Scott, I am sorry you are having problems, but don't scare off others from this combo when the real issue sounds like your armboard.

I mount Rega arms on TD-160s all the time using the wonderful Sound Supports armboards from Great Britain. Great product with excellent fit and finish. There is absolutely no VTA issue using their armboards, occasionally I have to add one or two Rega shims, depending on mat or cartridge.

The one issue I do encounter using the SS product is tightening the nut. I bought a $25 dollar hand grinder at the hardware store and I take an 1/8th inch off each edge of the nut. No issue after that.

Finally, PLEASE don't go on continuing the urban legend that the Rega is not a good match for suspended sub-chassis tables. You can read my opinion on this in my June 3, 2006 blog:

http://www.vinylnirvana.com/ar_verbosa.shtml

Best,

Dave
 
David, I'm not dissing Rega arms with Thorens tables in general, nor do I mean to dis the sound, as I haven't even heard it yet! I am just relating my experience in fitting this arm to this table. I am amazed that you have had no problems in using the soundsupports armboard! This is the exact armboard I'm using (the aluminum board) and I've had all these problems. Unless I'm missing something somewhere or there is something very unique about my particular table this armboard simply wouldn't work within Rega/Origin Live VTA specs.
Scott
 
I've mounted at least a dozen. Never had to alter the armboard, just the nut.

On a couple of MKIIs, I did have to use a Dremel to carve away about a half inch of the sub-chassis hole, but on the MKI, never any mounting issues.

You sure you have the suspension transport locks unscrewed all the way...that is the only thing I can think of you might be doing wrong.

Perhaps posting a picture of the area would help me to identify what's up. You can email me on my website address, if you wish.

dave
 
David, furthermore, in researching which tonearm to purchase for the Thorens I ran across your website, you played a part in my choosing to go for the Rega. I also preferred the Rega as it would play a larger variety of cartridges due to it's medium mass vs. the SME ultra low mass. I still expect that things will work out nicely with this setup, I'm just boggled you don't have these VTA issues with the Sound Support armboard!
 
ZebraBlvd, yes, it is plain to see how that would work. Your tonearm bass looks to be level with the top plate, exactly how I've had to mount mine. The custom armboard I had raised it higher than top plate, raising the tonearm too high in relation to platter.
 
I have a TD-160 Super, RB-300, and the Soundsupports armboard, and I didn't have to alter anything. NO VTA problems. I'm suprised you had to go through all that trouble to get it to work. Are you using a very thin mat? Is your platter not the correct one?
-Derek:music:
 
ZebrBlvd, if you place a straightedge on top of a record on your platter is it even with the underside of the tonearm, in other words, is the bottom of your tonearm in the exact same plane as the record? Since cutting down my armboard and getting correct static VTA this is the exact relationship my platter has with tonearm.
 
hdrl1935, stock mat, platter looks to be correct. I suspect a small amount of the difference could be accounted from not having any oil in bearing (from having tt upside down many times while modding), still, I would think that would add very little height to the platter. I do have a bearing support pad which will raise it further, still I'm amazed you can use that armboard without mods!
 
sns109 said:
.....is the bottom of your tonearm in the exact same plane as the record?
Click to expand...

It shouldn't be! It should be parallel, but not in the same plane. You can't set your VTA until you've set the suspension, put the platter and mat on, and put an average thickness record on. Then mount your cartridge, adjust tracking force, and place the stylus on the record, and check to see if the tonearm is parallel with the record surface. VTA is all about your cartridge and cantilever angle being correct, so you have to have it mounted and the tracking force set, and everything on the platter, including a record to adjust it. Hope I understood you correctly.
-Derek:music:
 
Derek, I've set the suspension, platter and mat on, average record on. According to Rega/Origin Live manual, tonearm base height to record top should be 31-32mm (1.25in), cartridge does not have to be on, they figure most cartridges are aprox. 17mm height, this is what they base the 32 mm figure on. This is where I have my arm set now, arm is parallel to record surface. To visualize what I mean by plane, I am looking at the relationship of arm wand to record surface, the bottom of my arm wand is very nearly exactly level with the playing surface of the record.
 
Doing some measuring of my stock TP16 with armboard comparing with Rega with Soundsupport armboard. Stock Height: from bottom of arm board (bottom of legs where it mounts to subchassis) to centerline of arm wand=aprox. 2.12 in.
Rega with modded sound support (ie. shortened legs): height from bottom of arm board (leg to subchassis mount) to centerline of arm wand= 2.20in.
Thus, with shortened legs the rega setup is still taller than the stock setup!
With the original long legs on the SoundSupport armboard I was way too high, this board was not correct for my Thorens. In speaking with David at Vinyl Nirvana it may be that I have a MKI top with MKII internals?
 
Those directions don't seem right. Mount your cartridge and put the stylus in a groove and tell me if your tone arm is parallel with your record surface. That's the proper way to set VTA. Has this arm been modifed for a VTA adjuster? That might be where we're getting confused.
-Derek:music:
 
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