Rega P3, Exact, Fono MM

[troika]

My vintage mid-fi system had become unreliable, so I've been replacing components. The relevant bits are a Creek Audio A50iR integrated amp that I picked up used without it's internal phono stage. When I bought it I picked up the cheapest Pro-Ject MM box (~$80) and used it with my vintage Philips 212 turntable. Before I parted with the outgoing receiver I tested the Pro-Ject stage against it's internal stage and was shocked at how much better the Pro-Ject stage sounded.

But, my vintage turntable became virtually impossible to set up and I brought home a used Rega P3 with a new, old stock Bias2 cartridge in it (on trial). I was absolutely blown away by the sound, specifically the doublebass, I am a jazz bassist and most of my LPs are 50s-60s hard bop and I just couldn't believe that it was possible to hear that sound coming off of records and into my room.

...so I convinced myself that the way was forward and instead of buying it, I bought a new P3 with a new Exact cart. Rega evidently has a supply chain problem so they are temporarily shipping P3s with the Exact vs the Elys cart and I decided that at this point it was worth the few hundred extra to get the best Rega cart. The shop also had a used Rega Fono MM MK3 and I just went for it on the belief that some of the goodness of the better cart might be lost on the entry level phono stage.

So, had I gone from Philips directly to here, maybe it would have had the same effect, but honestly, I'm not sure it sounds as good (as the used P3/Bias2). Specifically the bass is less tight and distinct. I know that Rega carts are not universally loved, but I can't find any indication that the Exact shouldn't be kicking the crap out of the Bias2, which I really couldn't read anything good about. So, I wonder if the difference is the phono stage. In fairness, the system as a whole sounds good, very good in fact, but I am missing that tight, nuanced bass.

I also can't find any review that suggests there is a better MM stage for a high end Rega cart and tone arm than the Rega, but I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about what might be going on.

I believe that both the Project stage and Bias cart had effectively zero hours on them. The Exact cart and new P3 definitely do, they were sealed in the box and set up by the shop. I did check alignment and tracking force and both seemed to be within about 1% of perfect. I plan to check them again when I felt like I had burned everything in. So far, I have played 29 LPs through this system. The Rega fono MM was used, so presumably it was broken in to begin with.

I don't want to start chasing nirvana, this system sounds very good and the one it replaced was unreliable. I wonder if sourcing a Creek stage would tighten the bass back up, if someone here thinks that will happen naturally at about the 50 hour mark, or if perhaps I should tweak the turntable setup a little bit.

Thanks in advance.

 

[lazycat]

The Fono is a very decent stage so I doubt that it's that. I've never been a fan of Rega carts but it should also sound pretty decent.

Make sure the t/t is level, maybe on a lighter support or a wall shelf - I'm sure you know this but it's worth repeating.

Also Rega arms tend to be over biased - start at half the VTF applied and work up slowly (lift the arm at every change) - I used just over half the bias to VTF on my RB300.

The cartridge should be broken in after 29 albums, but maybe give it a few more hours.

You may just not like the sound of the cartridge, be prepared for that. IMO, changing the phono amp won't change much.

Good luck with the fettling.

 

[troika]

Thank you @lazycat

Verified that the weight/force is exactly 1.75. Following your suggestion (I think) I can change the sound significantly by adjusting the anti-skate. Looking for the sweet spot, but there's the bass I was missing!

EDIT: That was it. I'm guessing the used one that I was basing expectations on has the bias set lower. I've got it in a spot that it making me happy, but I'll continue making little adjustments until I am convinced. But, yeah, vinyl bliss! Thank you very much for helping me.

 

[lazycat]

Thank you @lazycat

Verified that the weight/force is exactly 1.75. Following your suggestion (I think) I can change the sound significantly by adjusting the anti-skate. Looking for the sweet spot, but there's the bass I was missing!

EDIT: That was it. I'm guessing the used one that I was basing expectations on has the bias set lower. I've got it in a spot that it making me happy, but I'll continue making little adjustments until I am convinced. But, yeah, vinyl bliss! Thank you very much for helping me.

My pleasure. Always good to ask and go back to basics with a turntable.

Enjoy your music.

 

[cratz2]

I really like Rega tables but have never loved their lower end carts.

I had a Planar 2 from maybe 1996 to 2010. Whatever cart came on it was decent, but I replaced it with an Ortofon OM10, not sure if it was a Super or not but it was a considerable step up. Then I replaced that with a 2M Red and that sounded bigger, but maybe not as refined as the OM10. And now I don't quite love the 2M Red so looking back, I guess the Rega cart really didn't agree with me.

I would expect the Rega to fill in on the bottom end with maybe 10 to 20 hours but I doubt it will be a night and day difference.

I'd say if there's a way to keep the table and get a refund on the cartridge and possibly get something else, I'd look towards that.

Until then, I'd get 20 more sides in and see what you think.

 

[troika]

Thanks for your reply, but I think you skipped a few messages. @lazycat talked me through resolving the issue I was having. What was missing was reclaimed by backing off of the bias.

I know that Rega carts aren't universally loved, but their entry level cart impressed me on my system, in my room and I expected their top of the line MM cart, which the interwebs seem divided on rather than universally hating, to sound better. Tough to say, but it's probably fair to say the new table with the used Fono MM stage sounds overall better than the used table/bias2 with the Pro-ject stage, but there was a setup issue.

When it's time for a new cartridge or if I reach a point where I'm really not happy with what I'm hearing then I can start thinking about and chasing the perfect replacement, but I'm happy not to do that now. Historically, I've been a Grado guy, but it seems they are not recommended for Regas because of the hum issue and there is no clear-to-me, obvious perfect cart or I would have bought the table without and gone directly there. The world seems divided on Ortofon, I've only used them on record store listening stations. AT, Goldring, Denon, etc all have their supporters and detractors. The guy who helped me with the Rega at the shop has a Nagaoka on his 30 year old Planar 3 and that might be where I would start, but best guess is that I'd have to try a few things and add and remove spacers and tweak setup and alignment as I go. The argument for a Rega cart is that they're made for Rega turntables and arms and I've got a phono signal chain that plays well together to get me settled into a new system.

I will say that I've read reference to "the Rega sound" and someone described it as "warm and romantic", which I am hearing. It's less romantic and more assertive now that I've reclaimed the bass, but it's possible that I'll search for added detail some day. The very large changes in equipment that I have made in the last few months have been dramatic sonically, though and I'm certainly hearing more detail with this setup than I did with the outgoing one.

Very happy with the outcome for now and very appreciative for the help.

 

[DavidTT]

Congrats on the purchase and the dialing in. FWIW I recently mounted a rb220/moth with AS to a Thorens TD-160 and had the same experience described above with the AS setting. I'm running a Grado Gold (no hum!) and need to keep the AS somewhere well under the number one on the indicator for the cartridge to sound its best.

I'm also going to be looking to add a P3 or maybe a P6 in the next few months.

 

[krautmaster]

I too have a new Planar 3 with the Exact cartridge. It took about 25 hours to break in and now it is marvelous ! However, I'm using a Hudson HiFi clear acrylic mat on top of the glass platter and it really improved the sound over the Rega felt pad or my cork-rubber matt...it is worth the $20 for the sound improvement. (I also added a Groovetracer sub platter and counterweight).

007

• krautmaster
• Dec 1, 2021

Groovetracer counterweight 2

 

[lazycat]

When it's time for a new cartridge or if I reach a point where I'm really not happy with what I'm hearing then I can start thinking about and chasing the perfect replacement, but I'm happy not to do that now. Historically, I've been a Grado guy, but it seems they are not recommended for Regas because of the hum issue and there is no clear-to-me, obvious perfect cart or I would have bought the table without and gone directly there. The world seems divided on Ortofon, I've only used them on record store listening stations. AT, Goldring, Denon, etc all have their supporters and detractors. The guy who helped me with the Rega at the shop has a Nagaoka on his 30 year old Planar 3 and that might be where I would start, but best guess is that I'd have to try a few things and add and remove spacers and tweak setup and alignment as I go. The argument for a Rega cart is that they're made for Rega turntables and arms and I've got a phono signal chain that plays well together to get me settled into a new system.

I used an AT95HE and Ortofon - Blue and Bronze - with my RB300. All worked very well.

I'd also avoid a Grado because of the hum.
IMO the arm isn't heavy enough to get the best from a Denon 103. The others you suggest should work just fine.

That said. The Exact is still a pretty decent cartridge with a nice tip.

Just enjoy your records for now (thanks Dad. lol) - it's too easy to get on the 'I must upgrade' roundabout.

 

[troika]

I am certainly enjoying records. The bias adjustment made a big difference.

 

[troika]

5 Years later, I came across my old post because I was chasing "the sound" again, after feeling, like I had lost the bass. Anti-skate is effectively at zero now and it's glorious. I don't have to creep it up very far, before the bass starts to disappear again.

Weird, but until I hear or otherwise experience a problem that I think can be attributed to Anti-Skate, I'm leaving it there.

 

[sound hound]

I am not convinced that AS should be defeated with a pivoted arm. I have seen all to many styli under a high powered microscope with uneven stylus wear to realize that without properly setting up cartridge parameters, styli can prematurely wear out--let alone what it must do to records.

 

[jrtrent]

5 Years later, I came across my old post because I was chasing "the sound" again, after feeling, like I had lost the bass. Anti-skate is effectively at zero now and it's glorious. I don't have to creep it up very far, before the bass starts to disappear again.

Some years ago, I used an RP3 with a Shure M97xE, and it sounded better to me with anti-skate set as low as it would go (there was still a little anti-skate even at that setting). Later, I tried Soundsmith's recommended procedure for setting anti-skate, and it didn't sound any worse, so I left it there. On my particular turntable, that meant setting anti-skate at about 0.9 for a tracking force of 1.35 grams.

Weird, but until I hear or otherwise experience a problem that I think can be attributed to Anti-Skate, I'm leaving it there.

The only negative I'm aware of for using too little anti-skate is the need for increased vtf to avoid mistracking and more rapid/uneven wear of the stylus. Harry Weisfeld, who promoted having no anti-skate device installed, acknowledged this and said he simply changed out his stylus more frequently. For his M97xE (on which I believe he used JICO styli), he suggested 500 hours, saying the improved sound quality was worth the shortened life. I also used 500-hour replacement intervals for my N97xE styli, though Shure suggested they could last up to 800 hours.

I appreciate your post for its timely reminder to me of the value of adjustable anti-skate. My expected turntable purchase this month got delayed due to amplifier problems which I solved by applying money saved for a turntable towards the purchase of a Rotel CD11/A11 Tribute package instead, but for my modest needs I had been considering turntables with factory-fixed anti-skate settings, such a U-Turn Orbit or Planar 1. I might still end up there as recent comments in these forums suggest that U-Turn's anti-skate value is very well chosen.

 

[troika]

I'll keep experimenting it, but it's almost acting as a high pass filter. As I increase anti-skate, the bass and a lot of the body of the sound disappears.

Could there be something else going on with my setup?

 

[krautmaster]

I'll keep experimenting it, but it's almost acting as a high pass filter. As I increase anti-skate, the bass and a lot of the body of the sound disappears.

Could there be something else going on with my setup?

probably not...Rega's anti skate is generally a lot stronger than it needs to be, I set my RB330 arm under 1 on the scale (about .7) and that is plenty with a 540ML

 

[troika]

Question on "The Soundsmith" method...and I feel stupid asking, but having read and listened to his information on this, I still have to ask:

Should the platter be turning when you drop the needle in between the runout grooves in the deadwax? If I do it while it's turning, it grabs the groove, of course, in <1 rotation. If I do it when it isn't, it just lowers and sits there.

I do have a double album that they only pressed onto 3 sides, so I have a blank side. I also have my strobe mat, flipped over, which would be smooth, but I'm unclear on the method. Thanks in advance,

 

[jrtrent]

Question on "The Soundsmith" method...and I feel stupid asking, but having read and listened to his information on this, I still have to ask:

Should the platter be turning when you drop the needle in between the runout grooves in the deadwax? If I do it while it's turning, it grabs the groove, of course, in <1 rotation. If I do it when it isn't, it just lowers and sits there.

Yes, the platter should be turning, and yes, there is just a moment to observe if the arm is moving slowly toward the spindle. As the article says, "set the A-S so that the arm VERY SLOWLY drifts inwards when placed on the SURFACE (NOT IN A GROOVE) at the end of a record. You will have a moment to do this until the stylus “pops” into the run-out groove." Some of my albums have wider gaps in that area than others, and that makes it a bit easier.

I do have a double album that they only pressed onto 3 sides, so I have a blank side.

I've never had one of those, but I assume it would work. I don't know whether it matters, but I would use the same area of the record surface; that is, close enough to the spindle to be past where music would normally be pressed into the vinyl.

I also have my strobe mat, flipped over, which would be smooth, but I'm unclear on the method. Thanks in advance,

I'm not familiar with a strobe mat, but is it the same material as a vinyl record? Another quote, "one sets the stylus on a smooth surface of a record (at the end, in-between the run out grooves) – the tip of the stylus has a drag on the surface that somewhat similar to what it would have if it were in a groove. This is due to a calculation of “force per unit area” with consideration of the rheology of the material – vinyl."

https://www.sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-adjust-anti-skating-my-cartridge

 

[troika]

Okay, I have an EP, all of the grooves are on one side. I placed the smooth side up and tried this method.

With anti-skate off, when the needle hit the surface, it ran toward the spindle. With it set close to 1, it ran back towards the cradle. This is where it moves, ever so gently toward the spindle. Pretty much where I was tuning it by ear. No where near where the manufacturer suggests.

Last week, I settled on 1.61 for VTF.

 

[jrtrent]

Okay, I have an EP, all of the grooves are on one side. I placed the smooth side up and tried this method.

With anti-skate off, when the needle hit the surface, it ran toward the spindle. With it set close to 1, it ran back towards the cradle. This is where it moves, ever so gently toward the spindle. Pretty much where I was tuning it by ear.

The good news is that the anti-skate control on your Rega has a range of adjustment that includes a setting that corresponds with both your ears and at least one method recommended for setting anti-skate. The number on the scale doesn't really matter as long as I can set the amount I want.

No where near where the manufacturer suggests.

That seems to be a common experience, and not only with Rega. I've had two AT turntables that also needed a drastically lower anti-skate setting (my last one needed antiskate at 0.5 for a cartridge tracking at 2.1 grams), and Technics users in other threads have mentioned the same thing. I wonder if most turntable manufacturers' recommended setting is higher than it needs to be. John Hunter of Sumiko said he typically starts with 2/3 of the recommended value, and then Soundsmith's article did say, "Usually, most folks use far too much antiskating, as evidenced by the thousands of cartridges I have rebuilt over the last 40+ years – as evidenced by observation of the outer edge (right channel) of the diamond to be worn far more than the inner, or left channel."

 

[troika]

I appreciate everyone taking the time to help me learn. It's gratifying when a method matches my ears.