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Revox A77 restoration ( but NOT everything)

phatterplatter

Active Member
Hello,

I'm going to share what I'm doing with this A77 because SOMEONE has to!

If you're a wee bit familiar with this deck , you'll have heard of the smoky , bad 0.47 uf caps on the drive board .
The good thing about these is that : You can get at all of them without pulling the PCB out of the deck.
These caps are used in the AC voltage drive ckts of the motors. I believe that the metalized polyester caps would be good for this application.

I sent the pinch rollers ( because I'm restoring two decks from the same owner) to Terry Witt at terrysrubberrollers.com . I highly recommend him for any pinch rollers that need help.

Getting the pinch rollers off of the swing arm is a little bit more involved than other decks of the same era.

I'll let you know how ....soon
 
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Hi phatterplatter,

One thing to note about those Rifa capacitors: they are a particular safety type, and you should not replace them with just any metallized polyester capacitor, at the risk of them catching fire when they fail (the Rifas do release smoke but never catch fire, which makes a big difference to your safety). Replace them with X2-class capacitors ONLY! X2 caps are cheap and plentiful, so getting the correct type is not a problem. Rifa is still in business but, if you are afraid of them, there are many equivalents.

Thanks for the pointer to Terry Witt, last time I heard of him he was suffering from Covid. I am very glad to hear that he has recovered.
 
Hi phatterplatter,

One thing to note about those Rifa capacitors: they are a particular safety type, and you should not replace them with just any metallized polyester capacitor, at the risk of them catching fire when they fail (the Rifas do release smoke but never catch fire, which makes a big difference to your safety). Replace them with X2-class capacitors ONLY! X2 caps are cheap and plentiful, so getting the correct type is not a problem. Rifa is still in business but, if you are afraid of them, there are many equivalents.

Thanks for the pointer to Terry Witt, last time I heard of him he was suffering from Covid. I am very glad to hear that he has recovered.

Is that possibly true of all rifa film caps? Tandberg 64's are full of rifas and i have several to work on. I will have to look up these x2's as I was not aware or them....Thanks
 
As far as I can see, the Rifa capacitors in the 64 are only used in the audio path, and not in the power supply or in the mains connection, so they are not likely to fail - and, if they do, I do't think the energy flowing there is sufficient to set fire to them. Others than me will probably know why metallized paper was used there, I guess it was just because that was the best available technology to achieve the required capacities and voltages at a given price point at the time.

It is easy to see if a Rifa is going to fail: it develops visible cracks at its surface. With time, the cracks grow deeper and deeper in the outer epoxy layer. When they reach the dielectric, the air from outside can set fire to it, which is immediately extinguished - hence the spectacular puff of smoke. If you don't see cracks, no need to worry, and no need to change the caps.
 
As far as I can see, the Rifa capacitors in the 64 are only used in the audio path, and not in the power supply or in the mains connection, so they are not likely to fail - and, if they do, I do't think the energy flowing there is sufficient to set fire to them. Others than me will probably know why metallized paper was used there, I guess it was just because that was the best available technology to achieve the required capacities and voltages at a given price point at the time.

It is easy to see if a Rifa is going to fail: it develops visible cracks at its surface. With time, the cracks grow deeper and deeper in the outer epoxy layer. When they reach the dielectric, the air from outside can set fire to it, which is immediately extinguished - hence the spectacular puff of smoke. If you don't see cracks, no need to worry, and no need to change the caps.

That makes sense… thanks for the reply:banana:
 
last couple things that crossed my bench with those Rifa caps on the mains feed had cracks starting to form. I changed them just to make sure they don't cause any issues.
 
I saved all the old RIFA'S from a recap that I did on a Tandberg 64 ( Why did I save them? I dunno) But looking at them now I would say that a good 90% of them are cracked

Getting back on topic...I also have a Revox A77 that seems hopelessly dead at the moment. I'm gonna follow your thread to see how you make out...Good Luck!:beerchug:
 
Yes, toss them without regrets if they have cracks. Even if they don't release the magic smoke they will not behave as they should as soon as the dieletric meets the air. For signal use I guess any film capacitor with the right voltage and size will do. I'd probably replace those old Rifas with similar caps for the sake of authenticity, but that's it, , the X and Y safety classes were designed (and are mandatory) for mains use only.
 
The VU meters arent working and I believe that theyre stuck at the extreme left side.

I'm also looking for the lamps which are BA7 base , european style 36 volt at 40-50 mA

The End-of-tape bulb is a : 24 volt 30ma , wagner 17040 or CEC 2741

SN# for the first deck is : G006395
 
Is that possibly true of all rifa film caps? Tandberg 64's are full of rifas and i have several to work on. I will have to look up these x2's as I was not aware or them....Thanks


I came down with COVID and double pneumonia at the same time. 5 days in isolation ward at the hospital and Remdesivir shots all week.
Then , I ended up with right lung pneumonia and then , last month a sinus infection.

Mostly all better now except the non-pulmonary effects of Covid. Drs say that it will be several months for my lungs to get back to normal. I couldnt really do much work here at the shop because my body was SO F-ed up. ( We were infected by someone who was vaxxed , by the way)
 
Yes, toss them without regrets if they have cracks. Even if they don't release the magic smoke they will not behave as they should as soon as the dieletric meets the air. For signal use I guess any film capacitor with the right voltage and size will do. I'd probably replace those old Rifas with similar caps for the sake of authenticity, but that's it, , the X and Y safety classes were designed (and are mandatory) for mains use only.

All old RIFAs should be changed out the second they hit a bench — it’s a known issue, they are all bad at this point. Replace as someone said with X2 equivalents; the four on an A77 take little time to do and can be changed with the boards in place. I won’t even plug in an A77 until the RIFAs are changed out, there’s no point and if you’re unlucky it will cause other problems. Last time I did plug in a machine without changing the snubbers out, they managed to take the capstan control transistor with them.
 
What exactly is the construction on those things anyway, mylar / metalized polyester ? Also sort of curious why they fail so much. Normally epoxy sealed film caps are very reliable, but these specifically seem not to be. Maybe something about the epoxy isn't dimensionally stable over time, which causes the cracks and air exposure?
 
What exactly is the construction on those things anyway, mylar / metalized polyester ?
Metallized paper, actually. The choice of the dielectric is mainly related to self-healing properties (see for instance http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/line_supression/evoxrifa_rfi_fact.pdf). Most X-class capacitors are either metallized paper or metallized polypropylene.

Also sort of curious why they fail so much. Normally epoxy sealed film caps are very reliable, but these specifically seem not to be. Maybe something about the epoxy isn't dimensionally stable over time, which causes the cracks and air exposure?
X2 are a particular type, in that they are subject to high AC currents (which causes the dielectric to swell, contract and vibrate) and are required to be flame-proof too. Cured epoxy has an ignition point of about 1000°F (i.e. more than 530°C) so it is a good choice for this application, but it needs to be resilient enough to withstand the deformations of the dielectric without crackling, and this for many years.

On a French forum I have found a post by someone claiming to have witnessed the problem with Rifa while he was working at Ciba-Geigy who (also according to him) was then the manufacturer of the epoxy resin used by Rifa. Mind you, this is just internet talk, but at least this claims to be a first hand account. You can find it (in French) there: http://www.tsf-radio.org/forum/forum.php?show=282462#282462. Here is a Google translation of the interesting bits (I don't have the time to translate myself). I reproduce it with all due warning that this is an unconfirmed account by someone I don't personally know, so I cannot guarantee this is actually true:

"RIFA PME271 and RC metallized paper capacitors age badly even in storage. This comes from the design (casting in a mold and not in a dedicated box). Indeed, the resin used is an Epoxy Araldit resin (I worked for 35 years in the Ciba-Geigy factory producing this resin at the rate of 200 tons/day) very reactive which requires gelation for a few hours before the final polymerization at high temperature (80 to 120°C). However, this procedure is not compatible with the imperative of production, the molds not being able to be mobilized for such a long time. The unsuitable RIFA process produces hardening in a few minutes which results in high tensions in the material which produces cracks through which moisture can enter and lead to the combustion of the capacitor. I have already been confronted with this problem since the 70s because humidity modifies the properties of capacitors-increased losses- (I had returned lots of thousands of RIFA capacitors which were changed under warranty, but RIFA has never changed its manufacturing process. New RIFA capacitors. stored at room temperature (21÷25°C) show cracks and some even have shards of resin that have come off. In conclusion, it is necessary to avoid RIFA PME271 capacitors and use WIMA capacitors for example which are of conventional construction, i.e. a small case in which the capacitor winding with the output wires is introduced before the casting of the resin that can undergo the recommended procedure of preliminary gelation followed by final hardening at moderate temperature, which prevents the appearance of cracks."

Personally I have strong doubts about this version. I find it extremely difficult to believe that one of the major manufacturers of a safety-critical component has intentionally and systematically botched their whole production since 50+ years, and that their industrial customers (who are responsible of their own customers' safety) have never paid attention and keep buying those caps which are neither the only ones nor by far the cheapest X2 capacitors on the market. Also, I am not nearly as optimistic as the last sentence, as just last week I found two cracked Wima MP3 capacitors (the model mentioned above) in the mains filter of a V2000 VCR. Granted, the casing of the MP3 is not transparent so you cannot see whether it is developing cracks until the capacitor fails - but this does not mean they are not there.

It is my understanding that X2 capacitors are simply the best possible effort to achieve their goal (namely ensuring EMC, electrical safety and fire protection) for their expected lifetime, and just cannot be guaranteed to work for 50-odd years as is the case in the A77. When parts get old and especially when they are constantly subjected to stress, it is normal for them to need replacement.
 
For those who had already have the rifa cap out, can you measure the leadspace of them? I am about to replace them, but try to get the parts before taking the machine apart.
 
For those who had already have the rifa cap out, can you measure the leadspace of them? I am about to replace them, but try to get the parts before taking the machine apart.

Buy x2 with long leads and that is all what you need. You can not get caps with the same space, now distance is a bit shorter so simply bend leads to fit.
Example (A80):

20230304_110910[1].jpg
 
Thank you. I took the cover off and measure the rifa. The leadspace is around 22.5mm and overall width is 26mm. It is pretty common size. Another question about the electrolytic capacity on the amp board, the two listed 125uf and 3v. I could not find anything with 125uf at mouser, shall I go with 150uf instead?
 
150 uf should be fine
I could not get the exact hole spacing for my new x2 caps.
taking the machine apart, be prepared to replace all trimmig pots....
 
I’m going to recap my A77 mk3 has anyone had experience with the place on eBay from Switzerland Electronic Concepts selling all new pcb loaded ready to install. Or the place in Australia selling just kits .
 
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