Some overlap is normal. What’s not normal is the aberrant behavior around the crossover region - at least with the Type AA it is.
REW graphs showing Heresy to Super Heresy performance
- Thread starter Dave MacKay
- Start date
Some overlap is normal. What’s not normal is the aberrant behavior around the crossover region - at least with the Type AA it is.
Your graphs are fine. It's your "not worth the effort or money" conclusion I disagree with.
The cost of doing this mod is mostly METAL and real wood, which is 1/2 the cost of cheap MDF and plastic in the $3,200 Klipsch Heresy IV's, using a woofer with a cheaper magnet. You could do curves on those too, if you like, I'll bet the performance is similar.
We are not constrained by accountants or Marketing types, thankfully and we don't need a calculator to figure that out.
You don't have to "wonder" if you listen to them vs. the original Heresy 1's in the same room at the same spot with the same music, in MONO. Now it's too late and agree it's not worth the effort to go back.
You purpose was served fine with what you did, if you were left just "wondering" my "incomplete" comment applies.
More "typically" people finalize their OPINION from the MLP in their room listening to music. You don't need to repeat the obvious to me, concerning different rooms. I've owned and measured more rooms, speakers, drives, horns, of Klipsch and other types of makers than you will ever do the rest of your life. I have not need to go further with these mods from many hundreds of simulations. My designs have been built by others around the world, given away for free. If I agreed with everything you said concerning the MLP, we'd both be wrong.
I have not issue with your curves and how carefully they were done, but since they did leave you wondering, you clearly are not done yet.
Are you going to listen to your speakers in different rooms? If so you should reserve your judgement until then.
If you are unconvinced, keep in mind that no one has tried to convince you of anything.
I just shared the joy of my initial success with others 11 years ago and let others convince themselves.
If your are unconvinced, it's OK, I just want to know why, since, without exception that I'm aware of, on 2 forums, all SH modders were raving for over 10 years and have never gone back to originals.
You asked for feedback and you are getting it. Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant to the additional input to the subject you asked about.
If break in will barely "move the needle" on the TSP's vs. the right box volume and port I would say that's the least important part of the process. No curves required for the TSP measurements. If you are "concerned" then go waste the same amount of time as others have to prove the Myth correct or incorrect to lessen your concern. Either way I proved it a long time ago and have moved on.
I don't doubt your mike placement was identical for all your curves. You don't need to even defend that.
I never said the MLP measurement was THE way to go. It's the best way to JUDGE in 4 Dimensions, whether the speaker mod was worth it or not after ALL the Tweaks are applied passively.
In my case I apply Room PEQ's, and FIR methods to flatten out everything where it counts, as icing on the cake at the MLP where.
Aside from my computers speakers (KEF LS50's or KLipsch RP-600's), the Super Heresy's are the crappiest speakers I own. Only used for Surrounds in HT 1/2 the time.
I'm already convinced of pretty much everything in Audio.................................so far. I shall continue studying he science and improving my Audio Future, not necessarily with Klipsch speakers.
Just like their CS designation was for Crites Speakers, not CornScala, also a non Klipsch designation to confuse further.
Thank goodness for that. Everything in life is communicated through Contrast. If your write your opinions or facts (or curves) with white ink on white paper, we would never learn anything new.
All I ever did is used Klipsch's Pro woofer. Porting a cab has been done for almost a century, so other than recapping and a better tweeter, I did nothing worthy of having beraneks' law applied to me. It's not my creation. I even used the same Port Volume as the Herey Industrial Ported (HIP) that rand the horns 6 db louder than the woofer for PA use with a PA subwoofer. If anyone owns a pair of HIPs all they need is an E network and sMAHL to turn into a Super Heresy 1 for home use.
I never said you knowledge was incomplete. All of our knowledge is incomplete. Just your CONCLUSION from an incomplete PROCESS that created a less than real world OPINON.
When you are done with all this curving, and listen to your favorite music, and you say is sounds like $hit in your Room, then the blame will be no EQ for the ROOM and not the speaker box, which is as low of a distortion one can get for PWK's smallest box that saved the company. These are all good enough transducers after all.
Also, PWK's Heresy 1 was made from the same Fine Poplar Core Veneered Lumber they used for the Cornwall, belle, and the Khorn Face and Top Section. birch came later in the 70's I think, since they evolved into Pro Gear with it also. Likely explains why the older stuff keeps it's value. The 4 ear level Super H1 surrounds I have are Oiled Walnut and my third pair in the basement is stained birch, which came later as a less expensive option in the 80's, I think. They ran out of Alphabet letters to describe the year just in time for us to prefer the old PWK stuff. LOL.
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Gigantic
A big, big love
I hear you with your comments on your "disappointment". I was astounded at the level of sound quality improvement across the board, my H700 Heresy went from some of the worst speakers I'd ever heard, to one of the better ones. Yet, for all of the improvement, I remained unsatisfied, as for all of their vaunted clarity and midrange/mid bass punch and the improvement down low, I still found them lacking compared to other non-bookshelf speakers I'd owned. I paired therewith a pair of subs, yet I wanted more.
Hence my journey into bass extension cabinets, the franker-forte, my 3-way horn and current project...
You're not wrong to measure them out of room, yet the room is part of what makes them more compelling.
One component that isn't shown on a REW graph is the replication of sound quality. REW plots only show relative sound pressure levels not the finer details of a loudspeaker's articulation of sound. A necessary but not sufficient aspect of a loudspeaker, imo.
OK, however, you did listen to them, before you made value judgments and opinions, which were positive. You can't put the cart before the horse.
In support of my main point, you even posted curves AFTER the fact of telling everyone "I wish you could hear these." Which totally supports my point.
Axpona is an annual show, where the vendors pay Tens of THOUSANDS of dollars for a Hotel Room just for people to hear their speakers.
I have been there 3 times (I even slept in Greg's Volti Audio Room) and even told him he needed to make cheaper speakers in ONE cabinet for production efficiency, leswhich he now does.
My point is not a single Company ever shows Curves to anyone. They line up to LISTEN only.
It's all curious people and potential customers go there to LISTEN, and let their ears satisfy their curiosity, and make judgements from that whether it's worth writing a check for.
Some of the speakers are little ported boxes on sticks with and 8" woofer and a 1" dome Tweeter, ad Nauseam, for $15,000, the average price of Cables. If you ever attend it will challenge your tolerance for sales people's bull$hit about audio.
You guys are more advanced in the craft than you think. Some rich guys just want the bragging rights about what speakers COST and they care about how they LOOK as much as the sound. You will see lots of speakers that are pretty and a work of visual art.
Now back to the Super H's. None of the curves posted are a surprise to me and you can only do so much with passive networks and 45 year old drivers overlapping with a modern one in the tweeter. I have been using DSP crossovers for almost 20 years now and I have owned and still own speakers, Klipsch or Non Klipsch that sound and curve way better than what I see here.
Like you, Lance I did HEAR them before I measured them in 2 rooms, as proof of what I heard at the MLP, not the other way around.
(Did you get your 2206 yet? Post on that thread if you will.)
Curves are 2D data. Listening is 4D data.
No, the peak in the midrange does not necessarily "need" to be fixed that is just your OPINION and something you will ever "need" to do, since you don't even have these speakers. Another worthless set of words that are inapplicable or just plain wrong.
Contrary to what you stated here, a rising high end works better for old ears than young ones since hearing loss is a reality, especially for the former garage band crowd from the 70's. Ask me how I know.
The mounted tweeter peak at 1800 Hz. is below where the tweeter crossover point should be cured with a higher order rolloff, mating with the mid horn, and could be caused by several factors.. Marrying the electrical slope with the acoustic one at a complementary point is the key. It may not even be detectable by ear at the MLP, which is the final judge of improvement. In an a/b Listening comparison it would be easy to determine the winner with the 3 db higher output in the WOOFER section and lower bass.
Treble rolls off, traveling through the air with distance (power response nomenclature) , which make measuring at 1 meter only an industry standard reference point and not what happens at a given distance within the reverberant field in the Main Listening Position. If it measures flat at the MLP, it's too bright. I learned that lesson with Planar Magnetic speakers like the Carver Amazings, of which I owned 3 different pairs.
I'm still learning new lessons every day but very few positive ones on this forum, unfortunately.
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A peak there should have been rolled of with any reasonable network on that Super Tweeter. This must be a RAW measurement.
I did all this crap years ago and I have so moved on to other things, like 2 way compression drivers that are time aligned, etc. on others designs, Klipsch mods or not.
My Super Heresys have been done and done for a long time and many copes sold to friends who simply liked their sound better than stock.
The used market for H's to be molded was not as rare as now, at lower cost, so like Janis Joplin said: "Get it while you can."..........................or not.
However, it's fun to watch nonetheless.
mboxler
Well-Known Member
Not sure I understand the reasonable network statement, but I just retested. Red is RAW, white is with a series 2uf capacitor. I'll post the voltage across the DE120 next.
Since the OP asked for curves, I will do so eventually as I put Klipsch K-42-K's in a third pair that were 2.0's using a neo woofer. I'll save that expensive one for another project with Two 12's, one with a coAxial tweeter as a 2 way.
Taking things apart is as much work as putting them together. I will run curves on that when it's done to honor your request.
@Dave MacKay, I really do appreciate all your efforts in doing those initial curves. Good work.
I did not mean to come off as negatively as I may have. You should continue down this path. Learning is as much fun in this hobby as is the joy of musical listening and sharing both with others here.
Peace, and Happy New Year!
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Invidiosulus
Well-Known Member
I’m curious as to what is happening between here,
And here,
that causes the additional 6dB output on the tweeter?
And here,
that causes the additional 6dB output on the tweeter?