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Roadie1...newer vs old Klipsch...."do over"

jwcullison

Active Member
I am a Klipsch forum member and I have to admit that I’m a little tired of the jubilee system being a topic used to provoke one another. I just don’t get it.

To address the initial question……..there is a difference in sound between the “old and new” Klipsch.

The Heritage speakers sound much different than their newer Reference line. I am a Heritage fan really. When buying older heritage models…there may be some tweaking involved to get them to really shine. This concept is what brought me to the Klipsch forum to start with. I had a pair of 88 la scalas that sounded very harsh. I could only stand to listen to them at very low levels.

I then got on the Klipsch forum and found out ways to perk them up. This is a big value really. I now have La Scala II’s. The bass on these are better than the originals.

As much tweaking and dorkin around I’ve done with the Heritage stuff….I can’t find a way to enjoy Heavy metal/Hard Rock on them. This is a waist of time. I play that kinda stuff in my car and find it more enjoying there.

I recently sold some Kg 5.2’s. I regret selling them but I just had way too much stuff. They had great bass and could tolerate decent volume w/o that horn killing your ears. These were unmodded. They didn’t have the soundstage that the La Scalas have. They would however, be more forgiving on bad recordings or hard rock.

I recently demoed the RF 83’s. I was very disappointed. The midrange sounded very recessed and “muffled” for lack of better words. I really wanted to like them.

I bought some RF-52’s for my exercise room w/o a demo. They were just the right size. These are like the Kg5.2’s in that they are forgiving of bad recordings, can play metal or rap or whatever you through at them. They in no way have the magic or soundstage that my La Scala II’s have. They will stay in the exercise room.

I think the above will shed a little light on the initial question. The jubilee somehow got thrown in the mix. If you don’t want to hear more about that speaker….please ignore the following.

Well, I have heard that speaker now at 4 different locations. The bass bin was a winner to me the first time I heard it up to the last time I heard it. I like it better than the la scala bass bin and the Khorn bass bin. I really do love la scalas and the La scala II hasn’t gotten much attention as it deserves IMO. Great midbass and can point it in any direction to get the bass you want. It isn’t a low kicker by any means. Still like its sound. The jubilee reminds me of this except it goes lower. This last statement has caused some heat before but I still feel that way about it. The Jubilee bass bin is remarkable in that it can manage the low frequencies of more recent recording much better than the heritage horn loaded bass bins. The Khorn really never made it on my desire list……I don’t own a pair so I will leave that alone and I don’t want to start a war.

The K402. Honestly…the first few times I heard it….I didn’t accept it easily. It is definitely different than the Heritage sound. I think it took me getting used too. After hearing it for the third time…..I have grown to like it much more than the top end of the Heritage series. It is big and it has a “bigger” sound. I plan on buying a pair if I can ever get out of this existing house I’m in.

I’m on hold on the Jubilee bass bins right now. I built a pair and sold them. In Limbo on whether I should buy them or not. I have a recent love for the massive Klipsch MWM’s. My space won’t be an issue if I can ever get into another house. Right now I don’t have the space for much more anyway.

I hope this helps.

jc
 
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Nice post, JC. I agree that Klipsch Heritage may not be the best choice for heavy metal, etc. There are times when I miss my Dean-modded RF-7s, especially when I get in that "Metallica" mood. Would love to hear them on my latest VRDs.

There is just something about some of more modern designs, at least for very hard rock, that the horn-loaded bass just cannot match. If we add on a wing to this house, I may end up picking up another pair of Dean modded RF-7s or a pair from the Legend series. Even Cornwalls did not do it for me with respect to harder rock. At least not in comparison to RF-7s or their predecessors. On the other hand, I also love my all horn-loaded Heritage - just for different types of music. At least I have my Fortes downstairs in the same system - for a different type of jam.

I also agree with your impressions of the RF83s. To my ears, that speaker sounds like an attempt to overly smooth out what made some of their predecessors so good - to a point.

Won't touch the Jubilee discussion at all........
 
As much tweaking and dorkin around I’ve done with the Heritage stuff….I can’t find a way to enjoy Heavy metal/Hard Rock on them. This is a waist of time. I play that kinda stuff in my car and find it more enjoying there.

JC, I also don't like like the way alot of Heavy metal / Hard Rock sounds on my modded Cornwalls... Not enough bass and piercing Highs. Question for you, I always thought your DBB's would sound pretty good with this type of music, what didn't cut it with these (in your opinion)?

Also, did you ever try your DBB's as 2 ways? When I take the tweeter out of the equation and run my Cornwalls 2 way I enjoy Heavy Metal a little more.. not perfect but a bit better... I'm still searching for a speaker that can do it all, just not sure there's such an animal out there.:scratch2:
 
Hard Rock

I have this theory that the reason hard rock and industrial type styles don't sound good on the heritage lineups is that those systems lack the necessary low frequency extension.

You really need output down into the upper 20 Hz in order to capture all the fundamentals. Sometimes these numbers are often debated, but it's really easy to show what's needed by running an FFT on the CD you want to listen to.

I think the newer stuff gets away with it because the low frequency content triggers distortion in the speaker that provides the first harmonic which tricks our ears into hearing it. It sounds like a distortion you don't get with the fully horn loaded systems that are able to control the cone excursion better.

I know it's a whacked up theory, but I've been meaning to hear some low frequency horns to verify it.

I recently built a tapped horn sub thinking that was the route to go, but I don't think that's the case anymore since it's limited by air velocity compressions (same issue with ports). It's annoying really because low frequency reproduction requires big horns if you want it to be low distortion...even the MWM is undersized - and I don't think one could go any bigger and get it through a door.

For what it's worth, the Lascala II with the THX Ultra2 subs is actually one of my favorite sounding setups and I've found that it can usually handle the crazy music. What was normally harsh and ear grating suddenly becomes very smooth sounding in the mids/highs once the sub is added. The only downside is that the distortion levels in the subs aren't able to keep up with the horns. I think the compromise is worthwhile though if you want to be able to enjoy a wider variety of music.

Have you messed around at all with subs with your Lascala II's JC? I seem to recall you mentioning that you're not a sub fan? What kind of person doesn't like good meat, lettuce, and mayonnaise?
 
The dbb's were a great option for hard rock. However, not right at the beginning. I went through 4 networks with those. I went from 1st order networks to more "order" as time moved on. In the end...they would handle the hard Rock much better. They do have good bass extension...like a cornwall. Trying hard rock with 1st order networks on a Klipsch Heritage speaker will kill your ears.

Yes, I did run then two way with two different configs. The first was with the Altec 511/902 combo. That matched well and was easy to set up. I can't give an opinion about hard rock with that setup becauuse I don't remember trying it or not....too long ago.

Later I had the Klipsch K501/K69. ESN networks designed for the dbb. That combo would work for just about anything you threw at it. Of course at this point there is a good bit of $$$ in the system.

Mike...I am about to have my HSU subs hooked back up to integrate with the La Scalla II's. I have a new Mcintosh MC275 tube amp coming and will run my subs with a Carver amp. Yes....I've done this before.....the two subs keep up with the scalas "OK". I would really love to have an 18" bass horn in the mix but not enough room right now.

The late Kg5.2's that I had were great for metal. I had those in Medical School and I had people all the time bringing over metal at my parties to hear on my Carver/Klipsch system. Metallica was the overall favorite at the time. Right now...Metallica on my scalas is a little tough to listen too.

I have never heard a Klipsch Synergy speaker

jc
 
Interesting argument re: Heritage speakers are not so good for rock. I agree that most of my rock recordings don't sound right on my k-horns...however, I have a few rock recordings that sound absolutely superb. Tonal balance and especially the bass seem to be just right. This leads me to beleive that it is not the fault of the speakers...maybe just that most rock mixes are aimed at a different market...car audio etc.
 
Wow, I guess that's why they call it a ball game or a horse race or however that expression goes...

I listen to all kinds of music including hard rock from the late-sixties/seventies, I like to listen loud, and I have Heresys, Cornwalls, Scalas AND Belles.

If the Heritage line-up ain't good for hard rock, what pray tell are you guys listening too???
 
If the Heritage line-up ain't good for hard rock, what pray tell are you guys listening too???

I'm afraid they're rocking out to a mix of Marie Osmond, Debby Gibson and a little bit of Julie Andrews when they're going hard core...

:scratch2:
 
Wow, I guess that's why they call it a ball game or a horse race or however that expression goes...

I listen to all kinds of music including hard rock from the late-sixties/seventies, I like to listen loud, and I have Heresys, Cornwalls, Scalas AND Belles.

If the Heritage line-up ain't good for hard rock, what pray tell are you guys listening too???

Slomotion.

I don't listen to any rock from the sixties or seventies. I listen to Hard Rock from the 90's and up. This Hard Rock is typically close to Heavy Metal. Commonly Korn, Disturbed, metallica and such. These sound terrible to me on my Hi end sytem with Klipsch Heritage. Therefore....I listen to this stuff in my car or my low end stereo at other locations.

Now I am a big fan of the funk in the trunk. The heritage do well with this except the bass horns don't produce the bass %100 like I like but do fine. Cornwalls are good here.

Jazz and Blues seem to do the best on the Heritage IMO. I can't comment on classical as I absolutely can't even name any.

jc
 
Wow, I guess that's why they call it a ball game or a horse race or however that expression goes...

I listen to all kinds of music including hard rock from the late-sixties/seventies, I like to listen loud, and I have Heresys, Cornwalls, Scalas AND Belles.

If the Heritage line-up ain't good for hard rock, what pray tell are you guys listening too???

Whoa.........slow down...........:boring:

I know JC voiced his opinions about newer metal and Heritage sounding terrible. I won't go that far, and I will not say the Heritage line up "ain't good" for hard rock. I limited my post to Metallica and certain speed metal bands - I just think that some of the somewhat modern Klipsch floorstanders (excluding the latest Reference) can give you more "impact" for certain types of metal as opposed to some of the older Heritage. Doesn't make the older Heritage "bad" for those types of music (at least not in my cave), just the other floorstanders "better" IMHO. And yes, I'm also a volume junkie. To my ears, its more the traditional bass radiator sound (with the 1/2 or 1/3 horn speakers and a higher crossover) that provide certain "twack" as Duke would say, instead of the full horn-loaded. This is the most noticeable when I am only running my Khorns. I can compensate somewhat, however, because I also have a variety of Belles and Fortes spread around the room. Heck, even out of all horn-loaded speakers, my Belles are better "rock" speakers than Khorns.

For the record, my 7.1 vintage Heritage system does just fine with Ozzy, Boston, Foreigner, Yes, Zep, and certain "classic" rock.
 
I always get a kick out of how the genres change with generations.

In my opinion, the Cornwall is probably one of the best speakers for the playback of the 60's/70's rock.
 
Thanks for clarifying guys, you had me wondering there for a bit!

For my money, there is no better speaker for classic hard rock than Klipsch Heritage... for crisp, clear, LOUD rock that rocks hard, give me Heritage or give me deafness!

(I know, be careful what I wish for!)
 
I find that my pair of '57 Khorn mono's sound great with just about anything I throw at them.

Heavy metal and hard rock, especially. :)
Metallica, Dio, Infectious Grooves, Malmsteen, SOD, The Hunger, ect.....
Granted, i'm EQing with a vintage AudioControl and running them through a more modern Jolida 35 watt integrated.

Maybe that makes a difference?

Though, my Forte's coupled to my vintage SS Mac system, simply rock with whatever I throw at it.
And as a side note, the Chorus 1's in my bedroom, are no slouch when it comes to kickass moshing out.....when applicable. :)

Of course, the last two examples are construed as "psuedo heritage".
Personally, I still consider them in the aforementioned mix.

I find, as I have for a while now, that the synergy of your components upstream make or break the sound of the system when it comes to using our beloved Klipsch gear.


Regards,
John
 
I'm an old fart who loves the 50s, 60s, and earlier 70s. My Cornwalls and KG4s do a great job, as do my HPM100s.

My teenage son built a pair of Dayton III speakers that, for this current music, sound "better" than mine, in his opinion.

So there you go........................
 
Efficiency is what the Klipsch Heritage is all about. poor upstream equipment, overly mixed and lots of distortion (recordings) gets magnified when played through extremely high efficiency speakers. Jazz and Blues recordings are not overly complicated and there is not a lot going on in them.

The brutal honesty that highly efficient horn loaded speakers bring to upstream equipment and recordings is not for everyone. Of course YMMV
 
Modern Heavy Metal is recorded horribly IMHO. Way to hot. way to much activity on the distortion peddle and so on. It's amazing how these songs can sound just wonderful until they hit the hard riffs you can have it cranked and be loving it but as soon as the riff hits your running for the volume control from a mass of distortion. IMHO this has nothing to do with the fault of the speaker its the recording artist and engineers. I'd go as far to say the better the system the worse these artist will sound. Heck a good percentage of the target audience is using personal MP3 players, boom boxes or car stereos.

Craig
 
My Heresy II connected to a Digital Pro Audio (craigslist for $50) 12" DVC sub totally rocks! I do think the sub tones down the bright midrange. It does'nt bother me. Loud & clear like LIVE music sounds. Long Live Klipsch!
 
American pressed mass-produced hard rock/metal CDs are a sure way to get a headache on any audiophile grade system. Try finding your favorite metal CD on eBay, but add Jap* to the search criteria. There are also gold-plated audiophile CDs now out of print from companies MFSL, DCC and Mastersound. These are audiophile-grade pressings and over the past 4 years I have converted over 90% of my rock/metal collection to gold and Japan discs and they sound incredible. Just try getting one, and you will want more. There are DCC gold versions of Metallica's Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning. If anybody wants to know if certain titles are available in gold or Japan pressings just ask in this thread and I can let you know catalog numbers, cost, etc...
 
Have any of you done a listen session with the aluminum RVX- 54's? Curious what your thoughts were on them. The black ones look pretty sharp but how do they sound to old school Klipsch lovers ears? I am sure its hard to fathom OR stomach the idea of a speaker cab being aluminum for any of us that find 50% of the beauty of a speaker in its oak or walnut housing.

Interestingly enough, they are reference speakers

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rvx-54.aspx
 
I like 'em !!

Been using the 54's now for better part of a year and I'm pretty impressed. They lacked some low end, but a Klipsch 10" sub took care of that. The cleaner your source material the better they sound - I'm powering mine with a SX-D7000 and I'm still blown away when I crank Jeff Beck or Albert Collins....
 
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