SAE 1000e vs Sumiko Bluepoint?

[MuseChaser]

Short question version - Does anyone have any experience listening and comparing the SAE 1000e touted in the other lengthy thread with a Sumiko Bluepoint and/or Bluepoint No. 2? Would be interested in your observations.

Explanation/Detail - I currently have an original Bluepoint installed on a VPI Scout w/ the JMW Memorial tonearm, feeding an Adcom GFP565 to Hafler XL280 to Mike Dzurko's Audio Concepts LV Sat/Sub speakers (pair of two-way small speakers on stands w/ a single dual-voice coil aperiodically damped sub) in one system that gets used daily in our main living area, and a Bluepoint No. 2 installed on a Thorens TD166 Mark II feeding an Akitika PR102, to Van Alstine Transendence 3 hybrid amp, to a pair of Maggie 3.6 planars in my loft "Sit down, shut up, and LISTEN" system.

I've thought, frequently, that I should probably swap the turntables between these systems, but they both sound so good to me now that I'm loathe to do so, and the VPI, which I LOVE, gets used much more frequently the way things are now. I spent a LOT of time adjusting speaker placement and listening position placement, especially with the Maggie system, and the changing out of components has been a VERY slow evolution over many, many years. Right now, I really love the sound of both systems, and I'm not one to mess with something I love. In the early years, I suffered slightly (or more) from "gear acquisition syndrome," "equipment tweaking disorder," and the pursuit of audiophile-writer approved, "Class A" stuff or as close to it as my previously quite meager budget allowed. That stopped about ten or fifteen years ago with these two systems serving their purposes beautifully. I have no real desire or need to improve upon them at this point; they both really sound involving, rich, realistic, and thrilling to me.

All to say that the thread re/ the bargain available on the SAE carts snared me, so I bought one of the 1000e models as a backup, or as a possible gift to one of my turntable-owning sons.

Being as I hate to mess with things that are great, I haven't tried it in either system. Would be interested in hearing from anyone who can offer their experiences comparing these cartridges. Perhaps it would be worth the hassle?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

 

[knotscott]

If either tonearm has a removable head shell, why not pickup a spare and give the SAE a try?

 

[MuseChaser]

If either tonearm has a removable head shell, why not pickup a spare and give the SAE a try?

That would be a nice solution, but sadly that's not the case for either tonearm. The JWM-9 armwand is available... for $1000 or so. Sigh. The Thorens armwand separates in the middle, allowing cartridges to be installed fairly easily with the headshell permanently attached to the outer half of the wand once the arm is separated. It wouldn't be awful to swap out cartridges... but it's set up so nice now, I lack the motivation to spend the time to do it. I know... "just do it.'

 

[DavidTT]

Why not wait until it's time to retip or replace one of the Blue Points? If you listen every day you're less than a year away from needing to replace at least one of those things. I would keep the SAE until then, send out a Sumiko for a retip and install the SAE to see how you like it. If you enjoy it, the Sumiko comes back, retipped, and goes into a drawer until the next swap. No need to hurry it if you're happy with the sound of your systems now.

I bought three of the SAE/LT models, which for me are like you describe the Blue Point, good enough to sound really nice and to quell the urge to constantly change things out. Pretty nice way to be, and you can perhaps just add the SAE to your rotation then.

 

[Aerobat]

I have a Blue Point and a SAE1000LT. I can spin a record tomorrow and give you my thoughts.

 

[Fishead]

"Sit down, shut up, and LISTEN"

Hey MC, I just love the way you put that!

To the issue of your post, long version: I have had the Sumiko Blackbird and the SAE1000E as well as listened to the Bluepoint Special EVO III extensively on both my system and that of a friend where it went after it left mine. So not exactly the same cartridges you're asking about but certainly related. The Sumikos punch extremely well above their price-point in my perspective and I was a bit surprised that the Bluepoint EVO held its own so well against the Blackbird. The Blackbird wins this shootout, being the most refined (and pricey lest not forget) yet punchy, rock-solid transients for a detailed presentation with a powerfully realistic sound stage. The SAE1000E and Bluepoint EVO are both exquisite in their own right. I think of the Bluepoint being much like the Blackbird but maybe not the entire enchilada......So, really, really good just not quite as much of the good stuff but that's saying a lot because the Blackbird was soooo nice. The SAE1000E, however, might be the sleeper in the trove because the more and longer you listen to it, the more you will become enamored, at least I have.....it is, put simply, just so very easy to listen to and I don't find myself wanting..... The highs are beautiful, maybe just not as extended (but that can be personal preference as well) as the Blackbird, the bass isn't quite as punchy although still very solid....the midrange is what everyone's talking about that has gotten one and for good reason: it's just so sweet that you can listen for a very long time without fatigue, at least I did. The sound stage with the SAE surprised me a little when hearing it again and I'd call it on par with the Bluepoint at least. Sidenote: I think sound stage is the result of the sum of all the parts.....if everything works together beautifully, it presents as huge and immersive, puts you right there with everything coming from where it's supposed to.

Short version: I would suggest putting the SAE1000E on the table in the best system you have and listening for at least 2 weeks, listening every day, playing a wide variety of music that you like, and see what you think. Let us know if you do and tell us what you think/hear.....have fun, amigo!

 

[Sgt Shultz]

The SAE 1000E has a rather fat stylus profile and sounds appropriately so, FULL midrange a bit overly done, a bit reluctant in the upper registers, somewhat diffuse bass, all adding up to a rather polite presentation. Definitely easy to listen to but rather boring in direct comparison with cartridges with a more advanced stylus profile.

I highly recommend giving it a spin, might be just what you're looking for, or maybe confirm your choice of the Sumikos.

 

[Fishead]

I would expect the SAE to sound a little smoother and more refined.

"Smoother" - exactly! "Refined" would depend on what you mean by that and I know terms used to describe the sound of a cartridge can depend on our own perspectives, so not always a universal descriptor.

The BlackBird should be a little more focused, speedy and detailed owing to the superior diamond and cantilever material. But it should not be a LOT more focused, speedy and detailed.

Exactly! Ergo my comment about "entire enchilada," (see what I mean about descriptors??? )

I highly recommend giving it a spin

Exactly! One listener's "boring" can be another's sweet spot amigo.....but from your earlier posts this does not surprise. I'm seriously considering the Windbell for this very reason!

 

[Sgt Shultz]

"Smoother" - exactly! "Refined" would depend on what you mean by that and I know terms used to describe the sound of a cartridge can depend on our own perspectives, so not always a universal descriptor.



Exactly! Ergo my comment about "entire enchilada," (see what I mean about descriptors??? )



Exactly! One listener's "boring" can be another's sweet spot amigo.....but from your earlier posts this does not surprise. I'm seriously considering the Windbell for this very reason!

The Windbell has seen my collection of Grace cartridges sit the bench.

As for the OP directly comparing the SAE 1000E to a Sumiko, I found it's presentation very much akin to the Sumiko Black Pearl, similarly lush mids without super extension into the extremes at either end.

 

[Fishead]

presentation very much akin to the Sumiko Black Pearl,

I had the Black Pearl early on.....a very easy to listen to cartridge, cheap but better than its price, not close to my ears to the SAE though as my SAE gave far more extension to the highs, more depth, clarity and slam to the bass and the mids were much more clear and focused with better detail in that range of frequencies.

It occurs to me also that each of us will hear differently based on a plethora of variables, the least of which at my (maybe yours as well) age is hearing loss. Cartridge setup can have a huge, I mean HUGE impact on what we hear from it as well. That's what makes this game so dang complex and unpredictable in many regards from listener to listener. So, not sure about you, but I've learned that certain members who post here about such things seem to like what I like and that causes me to pay attention when they make recommendations. Maybe that's because we hear similarly? I dunno, but it seems to work pretty well on balance.

The Windbell has seen my collection of Grace cartridges sit the bench.

Ooooof! You're really tempting me Sarge.....just raised that bar several more inches. Where did you say you got yours? Do you have the MKII?

 

[Sgt Shultz]

I had the Black Pearl early on.....a very easy to listen to cartridge, cheap but better than its price, not close to my ears to the SAE though as my SAE gave far more extension to the highs, more depth, clarity and slam to the bass and the mids were much more clear and focused with better detail in that range of frequencies.

It occurs to me also that each of us will hear differently based on a plethora of variables, the least of which at my (maybe yours as well) age is hearing loss. Cartridge setup can have a huge, I mean HUGE impact on what we hear from it as well. That's what makes this game so dang complex and unpredictable in many regards from listener to listener. So, not sure about you, but I've learned that certain members who post here about such things seem to like what I like and that causes me to pay attention when they make recommendations. Maybe that's because we hear similarly? I dunno, but it seems to work pretty well on balance.




Ooooof! You're really tempting me Sarge.....just raised that bar several more inches. Where did you say you got yours? Do you have the MKII?

First, you're comparing the SAE to your memory of the Black Pearl, I have a brand new one here so was able to compare apples to apples as both are barely broken in. Both were installed on the Well Tempered Lab and the Black Pearl sounded way better than it had any right to at $100, I can see why it's so popular.

That said, it like the SAE are just too vanilla for me, I like more detail, long decay of the drum skins easily discernable, the sound of the bow sliding across the violin strings, the drummers fingers hitting the edge of the toms just before contacting the skins, etc etc.

I understand these things are not important to everyone, and at times not to me either, that's when I start the 400 disc juke box and let it play.

As for where I purchased the Windbell

 

[Fishead]

I understand these things are not important to everyone, and at times not to me either

This is true......my mood often dictates not only what I listen to but how I want it to sound. I have 4 tables currently set up, so it gives me a wide array of choices. Three are in one system, what I would call my B system. There is where I'm often able to really make comparisons that are meaningful to me and I use headphones (some might wince at that.....it's ok) for this purpose. I'm also able to choose the best tonearm compatibility arrangement and that's very significant I've learned.

But back to the MuseChaser's original proposition.....amigo, I think you might have to actually do some cartridge swapping for a while before you find what sounds best to you. And, you might find it varies somewhat.....the advantages of removable headshells becomes evident here and since you don't have them on either arm, it's just gonna be down and dirty grab your screwdriver and get to work time. I've come to enjoy this labor, but realize not everyone can do it for a host of reasons and that's regrettable so maybe not so enticing for them. In any case, have some fun and report back what you find amigo!

Don't forget to take adequate time with each cartridge to really let the sound become apparant....a few minutes, hours, or even days might not be enough. I've taken certain passages on a track from a record that I like and played them enough times until I can remember what the various instruments sounded like, even taken some notes whilst listening to help with comparisons. A complete treatise on "how to listen" might be good here at some point (think I've mentioned this before).

Edit - Off-topic, please forgive.....

So I've been thinking.....I don't recall ever seeing a thread on here about how to actually evaluate the sound of a cartridge. I'm referring to the various tonal characteristics and in an effort to come to a more meaningful way to express what we hear so that others might then be able to make better comparisons and decisions. Lots of words get thrown around, and you can kinda/sorta get an idea, but I'd like to create a "descriptive language" that might become a bit more universal, at least here on AK. Thoughts?

 

[Blue Shadow]

The Windbell has seen my collection of Grace cartridges sit the bench.

We had a Grace F9e fresh from Soundsmith. We teed it up, dropped in the groove and the owner then posted it for sale. We were unimpressed with the ruby Soundsmith on that Grace.

 

[Bob in WI]

We had a Grace F9e fresh from Soundsmith. We teed it up, dropped in the groove and the owner then posted it for sale. We were unimpressed with the ruby Soundsmith on that Grace.

That would be disappointing ......... very disappointing.
Oh my..............

 

[Bob in WI]

.I don't recall ever seeing a thread on here about how to actually evaluate the sound of a cartridge

Jim Smith(his book is "Get Better Sound") actually has listening sessions teaching 'how to listen' but, I think we're pretty far from the OPs question.
I have not been to one of Smiths sessions, just know they are offered.

 

[Blue Shadow]

 

[MuseChaser]

Fwiw, I really appreciate all of your responses. The gist of it seems to be that the SAE 1000e is more than capable of performing as well or better than the Sumikos I have, personal preferences, room, and equipment notwithstanding. Not sure I'll get to it before New Year's, much less before Christmas, but I'll give it a go eventually and report back. Will try it in the Maggie system first.

 

[Johnny_Law]

I have an SAE 1000LT, 1000E, and a half-inch pre-No.2 Sumiko Blue Point with a Needlestein-retipped nude Ogura line contact as well as a p-mount Blue Point with the original needle.

Currently running the half-inch Blue Point w/ nude Ogura line contact on my Yamaha PF-800 - which sounds amazing - and haven't gotten around to trying the rest. I guess I just need to find some time to do a shootout between them all and see how my results compare to all your comments in the thread, sounds fun.

 

[knotscott]

...All to say that the thread re/ the bargain available on the SAE carts snared me, so I bought one of the 1000e models as a backup, or as a possible gift to one of my turntable-owning sons....

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

The SAE bargain fever scorched me a bit too. I procrastinated about it til the LTs were sold out, so I bought an E instead. Shortly after my E arrived, he found a few more LTs, so I bought one of those too! By the time I had any of them mounted, our Christmas tree was up and the speakers got shoved unceremoniously into the corners of the room.....sound stage went from magic to tragic in about 93 seconds. I've listened to each for just a few minutes to confirm they work (sounded pretty good too), but it'll be a few weeks before I can really give anything a thorough listen.

Anywho....what if you were to snag one of those occasional great deals on a decent used mid-fi TT that pop up on CL or FB marketplace and try the SAE on one? Then maybe pass that one along to the son til he's ready for the good stuff!

 

[ranch 22b]

Most of you probably already know this but a small minority of the recently offered SAE cartridges turned out to have a bad channel. I got lucky with mine and all work as they should, providing an astoundingly good sound (to me) especially for the money. I'm not sure how eBay works but there may be a limited window to obtain a refund if you got a bad cart.