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SAEC W308 Alignment Question

hirscwi

hirscwi

Super Member
I have an SAEC W308N (the 9" version) I have mounted it according to the instructions. The instructions set it to 5mm overhang, which I've done. I also tried to align it using my Feickert protractor. It did not even come close to the marks on the Feickert. The stylus was at least a 1/2" short of the first alignment mark on the Feickert and not enough adjustment on the headshell screw slots to get it anywhere close. Here are my questions:

Am I doing something wrong with the alignment process? (I have used the Fecikert on several dozen arms so I believe I know how to use it, but I'm certainly not immune to making mistakes - dumb or otherwise).

Does the SAEC use a geometry that's not supported by the Feickert?

Some other problem?

Thanks for your assistance.
 
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The SAEC uses a unique alignment geometry. An internet search will reveal a tech paper explaining their ideas - not many people agree with them.

So you cannot use your Feickert to give you a factory alignment on the W308N
 
There's a guy on Le'Bay who prints templates for the WE308. While I can't vouch for the efficacy of said template, it is available. Phonomac is correct in that they use a very different geometry and I think it's primarily focused on reading
the inner groove.
 
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I think these tonearms were primarily marketed towards lovers of classical music, the justification being that most classical pieces have some sort of loud crescendo at the end which particularly suffers from inner groove distortion. Hence they optimised their geometry to give zero tracking error in the inner groove.
 
the 308N arm when cart is mounted at 5mm O/H the cart offset angle is 12deg, the inner null is at 39.2mm (in the label) and the outer null is 60.6mm, just about average end of album.

why they did this is only known to them. tracking error distortion across the album should be very high, however skating forces should be lower than most pivoted arms. To even get to stevenson nulls where the inner null is in the final grooves, you'll have to run the cart out a fair amount, and turn it to somewhere near 22deg of offset. if the headshell doesn't allow for this, dunno what you can do. very odd numbers
 
phonomac said:
The SAEC uses a unique alignment geometry. An internet search will reveal a tech paper explaining their ideas - not many people agree with them.

So you cannot use your Feickert to give you a factory alignment on the W308N
Click to expand...
I would like to read that and will see if I can track it down.
 
808_state said:
There's a guy on Le'Bay who prints templates for the WE308. While I can't vouch for the efficacy of said template, it is available. Phonomac is correct in that they use a very different geometry and I think it's primarily focused on reading
the inner groove.
Click to expand...
That would be handy. Hope I can find him. I wonder if @ConradH protractor will work?
 
stratokaster said:
I think these tonearms were primarily marketed towards lovers of classical music, the justification being that most classical pieces have some sort of loud crescendo at the end which particularly suffers from inner groove distortion. Hence they optimised their geometry to give zero tracking error in the inner groove.
Click to expand...
I'm a big classical music fan so it could work for me.
 
marcmorin said:
the 308N arm when cart is mounted at 5mm O/H the cart offset angle is 12deg, the inner null is at 39.2mm (in the label) and the outer null is 60.6mm, just about average end of album.

why they did this is only known to them. tracking error distortion across the album should be very high, however skating forces should be lower than most pivoted arms. To even get to stevenson nulls where the inner null is in the final grooves, you'll have to run the cart out a fair amount, and turn it to somewhere near 22deg of offset. if the headshell doesn't allow for this, dunno what you can do. very odd numbers
Click to expand...
I'll try that but am not sure i have that much adjustment.
 
I was able to create a protractor using Conrad's protractor printing program for this geometry. I had to reverse engineer the groove radii to get the proper null points. Here are the parameters I used:

Inner groove radius - 36.510
Outer groove radius - 68.36
Pivot to spindle 235

This yields the following:
Inner null - 39.184 (spec is 39.18)
Outer null - 60.616 (agrees spec)
Effective length - 240 (agrees spec)
Overhang - 5 (agrees spec)
Offset angle - 12 degrees (agrees spec)

Beats paying $35 for someone else to print it for me...
 
hirscwi said:
I was able to create a protractor using Conrad's protractor printing program for this geometry. I had to reverse engineer the groove radii to get the proper null points. Here are the parameters I used:

Inner groove radius - 36.510
Outer groove radius - 68.36
Pivot to spindle 235

This yields the following:
Inner null - 39.184 (spec is 39.18)
Outer null - 60.616 (agrees spec)
Effective length - 240 (agrees spec)
Overhang - 5 (agrees spec)
Offset angle - 12 degrees (agrees spec)

Beats paying $35 for someone else to print it for me...
Click to expand...


Howzitsound??????????
 
marcmorin said:
Howzitsound??????????
Click to expand...
I'm pleased with it. I have a dynavector 17D3 mounted. It produces a very nice soundstage. I can't tell where the speakers are located with my eyes closed. I listen to jazz and classical and it works nicely with both.

It is a very odd geometry - that becomes obvious when you print the protractor. The alignment points are so close. But I think it's the correct alignment because it is very close to the alignment I get when I follow SAEC's instructions - just a bit more accurate in terms of getting it tangential to the groove.
 
hirscwi said:
I'm pleased with it. I have a dynavector 17D3 mounted. It produces a very nice soundstage. I can't tell where the speakers are located with my eyes closed. I listen to jazz and classical and it works nicely with both.

It is a very odd geometry - that becomes obvious when you print the protractor. The alignment points are so close. But I think it's the correct alignment because it is very close to the alignment I get when I follow SAEC's instructions - just a bit more accurate in terms of getting it tangential to the groove.
Click to expand...

SAEC's rhetoric aside, to your ears how does it sound in the inner vs. outer groove?
 
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hirscwi said:
I can't hear any distortion in either the inner or outer portions. But I'm old and unsophisticated so, as they say "your mileage may vary".
Click to expand...

I have one of these sitting in storage in Japan. It's attached to this table:

s-l500_zpsbczww0vs.jpg

It might still be a while before I can get it shipped over here but it's cool to get impressions on how the arm performs from actual ears as opposed to how someone feels about the design.

s-l500%204_zpsqh2ymp8y.jpg
 
I just realized that I've been listening without the anti-skate attached. It was in place when I brought the table up from my shop and has now gone missing. I'm sure it's not gone far and it will be interesting to see if it makes an audible difference.
 
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