• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Safety Cap - 2 applications - same cap?

sabrefencer

AK Subscriber
Subscriber
After studying up on Safety Caps, I would like to share and get "expert" confirmation on the following:

I want to confirm that the same X1/Y2 type safety cap can be used (assuming the correct uF rating) in either of the "line to ground" or "across the line" applications shown below. The cap I am planning to use is made by Vishay: VY2103M63Y5US63V7 (link is to Mouser), but there are others that could be substituted. This type of "Safety Cap" is designed to fail OPEN. This is a 0.01uF cap, which looks like this:

X1 Y2.JPG


The two applications I have, both happen to be early 1960's tube integrated amplifiers, and have existing caps with the same 0.01uF rating, but they are installed differently.

Example 1 is a Fisher X-101-st, which has a 0.01uF cap from line to chassis ground (the black cap).X101st death cap.jpg
This is shown in the schematic as follows (cap is shown as C54):
X101st DC detail.JPG
If this cap fails short, it will short line to chassis ground - not good. Given that this cap is ~60 years old, I understand that this type of cap should be replaced with a modern safety cap. I plan on using the 0.01uF X1/Y2 cap shown above wired exactly the same as the original cap - from line to chassis ground.

Example 2 is a Scott 222B. This cap is "across the line", connecting to both legs of the AC line cord (after the fuse). It is present in the amp, but is not included in the schematic. Not sure if this was added after the unit left the factory, but the unit looks untouched. This is the round ceramic .01 cap in photo.

222B safety cap 1.jpg

Why did Scott use an "across the line" cap, while Fisher used a "line to ground" cap? I have read that the "across the line" can be used to reduce noise, but I'm not sure of this. Can I use the same X1/Y2 cap as I plan to use in the Fisher as an across the line cap in the Scott?


I assume that replacement of this ceramic cap is not absolutely necessary (unlike the Fisher), but I would think the modern safety cap would be a "safer" upgrade.

As stated above, I would like more knowledgeable members to confirm use of the same X1/Y2 Safety Cap in both of these applications, and correct any misinformation that I may have provided.

Here is a link to a very informative article from Just Radios on the subject that is the primary source of my research: https://www.justradios.com/safetytips.html


Gary
 
Register to hide this ad
As stated above, I would like more knowledgeable members to confirm use of the same X1/Y2 Safety Cap in both of these applications, and correct any misinformation that I may have provided.
I'm no expert, but you're correct that the dual rating (X1/Y2) allows use from line to ground and across the line. Across the line is done for noise suppression, perhaps RFI (radio frequency) suppression.

Many manufacturers made changes to circuits without documenting them or publishing a new schematic every time. I would assume that cap was installed at the factory.

A couple of more general tips . . .

While I've ordered from Mouser before, I mostly use Digi-Key, which is another major distributor, because they offer free shipping which is especially helpful for small parts orders where the shipping charges are often just as much or more than the parts.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/in...hipping-on-parts-orders.739513/#post-10018562

Also, for tube gear you'll probably get more informed advice over on the Tube forum. I don't stop by the DIY forum often but when I do it always seems to be mostly oriented toward SS and other gear than tubes and mostly more minor repairs. Rightly or wrongly, I associate DIY with building from scratch and doing major mods. The Tube forum includes more of that as well as lots of general tube related discussion.

There is also a dedicated Fisher forum, but no Scott forum.
 
I thought about putting this in the Tube Gear thread, but since it could apply to any unit with a "death cap" or safety cap, I stuck it in DIY. I get your point about DIY being "low volume" in 3+ years on AK, I have not been there much. I usually hang out in the Tube, Fisher, McIntosh, and Pioneer forums. I already have the caps, and included the Mouser link, in case anyone wanted to check the datasheet. I regularly order from Mouser, DigiKey, and Newark. I will be using the same cap on both of these units, and probably others in the future.
 
These are the kinds of caps I buy, specifically because they will do both jobs. Easier to stock 1 part vs 2, especially since I don't have to remember which is for what job.

I had one ceramic across the line cap fail on me. I didn't notice any damage on a quick visual check but when I plugged it in I got a blue fireball on the back side of the cap. Found a big hole blown in it. Don't honestly know if it was there before I plugged it in or not but either way it scared the hell out of me. I was told that amp was involved in a lightning strike, but the only thing that was actually wrong with the entire unit was that specific cap and one bad resistor in the tuner so I can't confirm that. I have seen multiple paper caps fail though. AA5 type radios often had one side of the power cord tied straight to chassis, and on the other side you'd get a paper cap to chassis. When those caps fail they very literally explode sometimes.
 
X safety capacitor is across the line and if they fail, they fail shorted. Easy for me to remember, X equals across ;)

Y safety capacitor is line to ground and if fail, they fail open.

Both are AC rated and the voltage will be in the suffix ( Y1 or X2) or something similar…..

VR
Andy
 
X safety capacitor is across the line and if they fail, they fail shorted. Easy for me to remember, X equals across ;)

Y safety capacitor is line to ground and if fail, they fail open.

Both are AC rated and the voltage will be in the suffix ( Y1 or X2) or something similar…..

VR
Andy

Most modern safety capacitors are "X/Y" rated, so obviously the X and Y safety rating doesn't mean "fail open or shorted". AFAIK the safety ratings are related to parts not causing a Human to be electrocuted or starting a fire in case of fail.
 
Most modern safety capacitors are "X/Y" rated, so obviously the X and Y safety rating doesn't mean "fail open or shorted". AFAIK the safety ratings are related to parts not causing a Human to be electrocuted or starting a fire in case of fail.

That was the point, X/Y AC safety caps can be used in either application, hence the rating(s) they will function accordingly….the designation(s) are as stated.

I’m sure most here already know this, just wrote it out for those who weren’t aware….

VR
Andy
 
Hi Friends
Taking advantage of this thread to get help.

My ampli Marantz 1120 is showing noise when I select Aux and Phono, and turn up the volume.
I can listen to a radio station even though I don't have any tuner connected to the amplifier.

I suspect a bad capacitor C115 (0.01uf 1400V), across the line, as in the image below:

upload_2021-6-22_11-26-10.png

Could this cap be the problem?
Can i replace it with a 0,1uf 275 V X2 (made by Dain)? Or o,1uf is too big for that place or 275V is too lower voltage?

Regards
Thank you
 

Attachments

  • upload_2021-6-22_11-24-9.png
    upload_2021-6-22_11-24-9.png
    222.9 KB · Views: 2
Radio stations could be getting into the amp through dirty connectors. Clean all the interconnects, even the power cord plug. Make them shine and try again. I doubt that capacitor is the problem.
 
Hi Friends
Taking advantage of this thread to get help.

My ampli Marantz 1120 is showing noise when I select Aux and Phono, and turn up the volume.
I can listen to a radio station even though I don't have any tuner connected to the amplifier.

I suspect a bad capacitor C115 (0.01uf 1400V), across the line, as in the image below:

View attachment 2265495

Could this cap be the problem?
Can i replace it with a 0,1uf 275 V X2 (made by Dain)? Or o,1uf is too big for that place or 275V is too lower voltage?

Regards
Thank you


If you do decide to replace it use the same voltage or above…..
 
Radio stations could be getting into the amp through dirty connectors. Clean all the interconnects, even the power cord plug. Make them shine and try again. I doubt that capacitor is the problem.

Thanks elnaldo
Muchas gracias desde Brasil
 
an open cap across the line *could* let radio signal come in through the power cord but it isn't the most likely thing. I'd keep to the original value though, a larger value cap will draw more current and get hotter.
 
Thanks gadget.
I will clean it first.
I will post result here

It is original yet, except 2 main big caps.
 
If i want to replace that cap, can I use a 0,01uf X2 type, with 275VAC?
The wall voltage here is 120VAC
 
Back
Top Bottom