Sales numbers on the last jelco arms? (ts-350 to ts-950 mk 1 and 2)?

[TrevorBarten]

I have been reading up on jelco arms the last few weeks and one thing I noticed is that for a company that was as established in the audio world as jelco, finding specifications on especially their newer arms is very difficult. I have seen conflicting information on these arms in terms of their effective mass and other specifications. Because of this I am left wondering how well these arms actually sold. Not to even mention low availability of both the mk 1 and 2 models and the somewhat absurd resale prices (A ts-350s mk1 sold on ebay a few months ago for 900 usd NOS). Did no one buy these arms? I cannot imagine the market is particularly large for tonearms regardless.

 

[Blue Shadow]

I cannot imagine the market is particularly large for tonearms regardless.

For how small the market is there are a huge pile of tonearms that have been made and marketed over the years. Over 400 are pictured in a thread on Tapeheads. and I cut that number down from the 600 or so pics because a few showed multiple views so the number could be closer to 500.

This is long term, not just the last 20 years. It seems all sorts of folks believe they can make a tonearm and sell some.

 

[BillWojo]

Do you mind posting a link to that thread? I'd love to see pics of 400+ different tonearms.

BillWojo

 

[TrevorBarten]

For how small the market is there are a huge pile of tonearms that have been made and marketed over the years. Over 400 are pictured in a thread on Tapeheads. and I cut that number down from the 600 or so pics because a few showed multiple views so the number could be closer to 500.

This is long term, not just the last 20 years. It seems all sorts of folks believe they can make a tonearm and sell some.

I phrased that poorly. I meant that I cannot imagine that the market is particularly large today, especially not in 2018/2020

 

[ChristopherP]

Your comment is interesting. I was thinking about it, and felt I could add some light. Jelco made excellent tonearms and parts for many years, their own and for others.
Micro-Seki, '80s era AR, Japanese Mfgs., also parts, and headshells. The last Jelco arms perhaps went to Ortofon as their arm used Jelco hard parts. I understand these were excellent. The price is no surprise, if you can find an '80s tonearm and its original price. Put it through an inflation calc. and you'll be amazed. The tolerances and precision required to control a stylus without negatively affecting the sound have not changed, and is not easier today than yesterday. Precision bearings are what they are. Skill of manufacture are a necessity, full stop.

It's interesting that many turntables on the used market favored for use/restoration by folks use separate tonearms. For many years '60s into the '90s, separate record player chains, were popular with the higher end phonographs. My AR 'The Turntable' came with an AR branded Jelco mfg. arm. It's a good arm and was excellent for the carts of the era. Like many folks who upgraded their table by buying an armboard and arm, I purchased a Jelco 750D, an excellent arm expanding the types of carts into the medium weight range allowing me to play with more different carts. Of course it wasn't one of the high end pieces of jewelry, and a bit under rated. Scarcity in the market raises prices, it's just what happens.

Once you understand that matching a TT and Arm with the right cart. makes a huge difference when you get it right, I'm not sure going back is in the cards. Vintage and New TTs sold without arms continue this. The loss of Jelco to the industry is very sad. The new Sorane seems to be a good replacement. Used arms are out there and worth watching for.

This is not meant to be a rant but I think the context of precision manufacturing by people working by hand is unappreciated in todays, 3D print world. Hope this helps gives some little bit of insight. FWIW, YMMV, etc.

 

[TrevorBarten]

Your comment is interesting. I was thinking about it, and felt I could add some light. Jelco made excellent tonearms and parts for many years, their own and for others.
Micro-Seki, '80s era AR, Japanese Mfgs., also parts, and headshells. The last Jelco arms perhaps went to Ortofon as their arm used Jelco hard parts. I understand these were excellent. The price is no surprise, if you can find an '80s tonearm and its original price. Put it through an inflation calc. and you'll be amazed. The tolerances and precision required to control a stylus without negatively affecting the sound have not changed, and is not easier today than yesterday. Precision bearings are what they are. Skill of manufacture are a necessity, full stop.

It's interesting that many turntables on the used market favored for use/restoration by folks use separate tonearms. For many years '60s into the '90s, separate record player chains, were popular with the higher end phonographs. My AR 'The Turntable' came with an AR branded Jelco mfg. arm. It's a good arm and was excellent for the carts of the era. Like many folks who upgraded their table by buying an armboard and arm, I purchased a Jelco 750D, an excellent arm expanding the types of carts into the medium weight range allowing me to play with more different carts. Of course it wasn't one of the high end pieces of jewelry, and a bit under rated. Scarcity in the market raises prices, it's just what happens.

Once you understand that matching a TT and Arm with the right cart. makes a huge difference when you get it right, I'm not sure going back is in the cards. Vintage and New TTs sold without arms continue this. The loss of Jelco to the industry is very sad. The new Sorane seems to be a good replacement. Used arms are out there and worth watching for.

This is not meant to be a rant but I think the context of precision manufacturing by people working by hand is unappreciated in todays, 3D print world. Hope this helps gives some little bit of insight. FWIW, YMMV, etc.

Oh for sure. I am not saying the tonearms are overvalued on the second hand market. I would imagine that something like an epa-100 would out perform a ts-350, but it's also not the case that an average ts-350 would sell for 900 usd. It is true however that many of the later jelco arms are very scarce secondhand. The jelco sa-750 series seems to have kept up with it's new price but hasn't really gotten out of hand. I suspect that this is due to a relatively large supply as well as the sa-370/sumiko mmt alternatives even if they aren't the same arm. I must add to this that finding a sa-750 priced reasonably is not that easy but it is doable and if Asia is taken out of the equation I'd imagine it's probably similar in difficulty to other, older, tonearms. But the ts series of arms, especially the mk-2 aren't just hard to find at good price, they seem really hard to find in general.

 

[ChristopherP]

Oh for sure. I am not saying the tonearms are overvalued on the second hand market. I would imagine that something like an epa-100 would out perform a ts-350, but it's also not the case that an average ts-350 would sell for 900 usd. It is true however that many of the later jelco arms are very scarce secondhand. The jelco sa-750 series seems to have kept up with it's new price but hasn't really gotten out of hand. I suspect that this is due to a relatively large supply as well as the sa-370/sumiko mmt alternatives even if they aren't the same arm. I must add to this that finding a sa-750 priced reasonably is not that easy but it is doable and if Asia is taken out of the equation I'd imagine it's probably similar in difficulty to other, older, tonearms. But the ts series of arms, especially the mk-2 aren't just hard to find at good price, they seem really hard to find in general.

Yes and again Ortophon‘s tone arms were essentially the mk-2 but with their elastomer technology. I certainly don’t know the contract issues, but the sudden shutdown of the Jelco line, had to have left an unfulled quantity of parts in the pipeline when Covid shut them down. So, I’m pretty sure you have to look at the Ortophon tonearm rather than Jelco for that TS series arm. Not inexpensive, and very well reviewed.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Put it through an inflation calc. and you'll be amazed.

I did that with my recent purchase of an NOS Magnepan Unitrac for 103-110 US$ from 1980. That is 1/3 of list price back then. I consider that a steal of a deal since the Magnepan is highly respected. Folks not liking unipivots will avoid them but it really is a sweet tonearm. Came out after the ∞BW and a pile of Grace arms the SME II and Imp, the Mayware and other Formula tonearms improving on all those designs in many ways.

There are lots of tonearms out there. Some can be very well bought, some command too much but you can probably find what you need except maybe a few of the Jelcos because their closing got folks hunting them.