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Sansui 8900zdb vs G-5500? Sound Quality? Help today please.

Thanks, so now I found a 2nd problem, like you said where there smoke there is fire. The Presets for the FM don't stay saved when I power the receiver down and then power it back up.

Likely related to the 1st FM Turner display station number indicator?
 
There is a compartment on the rear panel (pop open plastic cover) that holds two AA batteries to backup the station preset memory. Make sure the compartment is clean (often, old batteries have leaked in there at some point and corroded the contacts) and install fresh AA batteries. Then try setting station presets, and see if they hold.
 
Yea, and I read about that before I got it. But I forgot. Yep I will do a good contact cleaning on it. Those are the kinda fixes I like. Thanks I owe you one again.
 
Sansuiman said:
There is a compartment on the rear panel (pop open plastic cover) that holds two AA batteries to backup the station preset memory. Make sure the compartment is clean (often, old batteries have leaked in there at some point and corroded the contacts) and install fresh AA batteries. Then try setting station presets, and see if they hold.
Click to expand...


Yep that did the trick. Funny thing about the station is some are tuning on the . odd digit some are not.
 
jgscott said:
Yep that did the trick. Funny thing about the station is some are tuning on the . odd digit some are not.
Click to expand...
It needs a proper alignment to get it right, doing it "on the fly" might get it better, but only a proper alignment with the right gear and a person with the necessary knowledge and experience can get it perfect...
 
jgscott said:
"The loudness circuit is your friend"

Can you explain?
Click to expand...
I think he means to use the Loudness to get some more bass from it, but loudness also boosts the top end as well and I find Loudness controls make amps sound fake and bloated.....
 
You will need to try combinations of all controls on Your gear, with Your music, in Your room, sitting in Your chair . . . . Other listeners will hear things differently in different environments, but you are not trying to please them. Exploring the advice of others is usually worthwhile, if you respect the knowledge & experience of the advisor, and remember that it is an opinion.

Enjoy - - -
 
ghazzer said:
You will need to try combinations of all controls on Your gear, with Your music, in Your room, sitting in Your chair . . . . Other listeners will hear things differently in different environments, but you are not trying to please them. Exploring the advice of others is usually worthwhile, if you respect the knowledge & experience of the advisor, and remember that it is an opinion.

Enjoy - - -
Click to expand...
Off topic, what size is your Dobsonian? I run a 10inch, great viewing down here in NZ during the winter, we have Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Mercury in the sky, and of course the Milky way is high in the sky too....nothing like sitting outside with a warm beverage star gazing!!
 
moefuzz said:
QUOTE
"I think he means to use the Loudness to get some more bass from it, but loudness also boosts the top end as well and I find Loudness controls make amps sound fake and bloated.....QUOTE


Why do you even own Sansui amps if you can't even fathom what the loudness circuit actually does?

Personally I don't own many sansui's just so I can proclaim that I own them
The quality of sound is what matters not how many or which



o_O

.
Click to expand...
Hey man, take it easy, no need to get on your high horse with me please.

I am well aware of the Fletcher Munson curve, I am well aware of the function of a Loudness circuit. I am also a technician, and an audio engineer, its my profession to deploy and tune Audio systems. I actually know what I am talking about.
I can recite all you have posted without copying and pasting from the internet.

MOST Loudness circuits are an approximation AT BEST to compensate for the Fletcher Munson curve. Not all loudness circuits are created equal, and a fixed loudness is next to useless except as an extra tone control because of the lack of variable control.
Its absolutely fine to use it as a tone control in any case as it may actually flatten the response of the particular speakers being used at the time.

A proper loudness circuit is variable, the Fletcher Munson curve changes depending on the level at the time.
McIntosh and Yamaha have excellent loudness controls that are very good at compensating for that.

Show me a Sansui which has this?

Just tone the attitude down a bit please and think about what you are reading and saying.
I said what I did because in MY experience, with the speakers I use, this is certainly the case for any fixed Loudness control on ANY amplifier, not just a Sansui.
 
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moefuzz said:
Yeah, sure we can do that. But first lets look at how human hearing works....
(please excuse spelling mistakes as I don't live in your country and I have limited time here)

Loudness circuits were and are designed to overcome the human ears inability to hear or perceive a flat frequency response across the known audio spectrum.

Human hearing is much more sensitive from just 2 kilohertz to 5 kz, in other words, your ability to hear frequencies lower or higher than this limited bandwidth is rather poor.

The loudness circuit and especially Sansui's loudness circuits attempt to flatten out your ears frequency response above and below our naturally limited bandwidth when reproduced thru excellent and ultimately flat amps and flat speakers.

Sansui in particular payed close attention to, and did an excellent job of designing their loudness circuits to closely follow what was known about our lack of hearing (limited bandwidth) based on:
the Fletcher Munson (or equal loudness) curve.

The Fletcher Munson curves were the first study of (or lack thereof), of human hearing across our ears total bandwidth - which for most young adults is 20 hertz to ~20 kilohertz.
20 hertz to 20 kilohertz is also the standard specs that most amplifier/speaker manufacturers base their products frequency response on, -for instance
"100 watts RMS both channels driven + or - 3 db from 20hz to 20kz.
All amps are designed around our hearings total bandwidth of 20 hertz to ~20 kilohertz.

Problem is our hearing drastically falls off below 2,000hz and above 5,000hz.

In 1933 Fletcher and Munson studied and mapped our hearing and came up with a fair accurate frequency response curve which looks like this:


View attachment 1554851


The above picture is misleading.
It actually shows how much an artificial source (amp) would need to boost low, mid and high frequencies
to account for our (human) lack of flat frequency response (and at different decibel levels) .


But if we flip the curve upside down, we get and ACCURATE picture of what
our hearing actually is (in)capable of hearing

Like this:

View attachment 1554854


*That is your actual hearing or frequency response at different volumes.

on the upside down chart
Note on the left that the chart is in decibels.
Note our peak hearing is in the 2 to 5 k range.
Note that at louder volumes our hearing begins to ~somewhat~ flatten out.

now recall what your favorite amp (and speakers) are rated at
for instance:
+/- 3db at rated output from 20hz to 20kilohertz (both channels driven).

Although not drawn into the above graph(s) it is a given that your amp is any one of the actual graph horizontal/flat or straight lines on this chart.

lets go further:
The loudness circuit attempts to boost all frequencies that we as humans lack
as opposed to the flat frequency response that both your amp and speakers are
ultimately (industry standard) designed and rated at.


Look at the (upside down) chart and pick a decibel/horizontal line that is similiar to your speakers....
For instance, If the excellent Sansui SX11000 speakers are rated at 100 decibels (+ or -)
at 1 watt at one meter then follow the horizontal line of 100 decibels straight across and
further note -->your<--- inability to hear all frequencies equally across the 100 decibel flat line.

As you venture farther up in volume with your massive Sansui amp your hearing slightly flattens out,
but only slightly

- for instance look at the difference in your ears frequency response from 1 watt (for speakers rated at 100 db on the graph//line) and what your amp is capable of doing, which is to say your amp can push your 100 db rated speakers to 130 decibels (graph/line).

Take note of the different frequency response of your hearing (curve) from low volume to respectable levels.
your hearing/curve is slightly different between low volumes and massive SANSUI Amp volumes.

The loudness circuit takes the (lack of flat human response) at 1 watt and flattens it out to match the horizontal line of 100 decibels.

Sansui's excellent loudness circuit is progressive at all volumes meaning that it flattens the line accordingly at low volumes across our respective ears full spectrum of 20hz to 20kilohertz and as we increase the volume the highly customized circuit attempts to maintain a correct (compensation) across the entire spectrum as we increase the volume from low all the way thru house shaking.

Most high end amps of the day had loudness circuits that attempted to compensate for our
(lack of) hearing but not all amps received the attention of excellent engineers
like those at Sansui who truly tried to be as accurate at all frequencies and at all volumes.

Sansui's (and many others I'm sure) Loudness circuit tapers off
once you approach the particular amps actual full song (rating).
Sansui amps Loudness circuits are designed to help you hear the timber of a bass drum
at low volumes of which our ears would generally not perceive especially
when given that our amps and speakers have always been rated at fair flat
ratings across an expansive (volume) range.

At low volumes we would miss the breatheness of a beautiful voice as our favorite
young musician sings. Also too would be lost the inherent 1st thru 5th harmonics
of things like (a 440hz) violin strings resonating with the rosewood violin body .

As we turn the volume up it is volume and only volume
that helps us start to hear the "breath" and harmonics that were there all along but
our hearing is so poor that we need to amplify things (by cranking it up) to hear the nuances of the musicians and instruments. The loudness circuit gives us back the ability to hear "breadth" and things 2 - 5 order harmonics of rosewood bodies at low volumes.
Sansui's loudness circuit follows your hand on the volume knob and automatically
compensates for our (lack of) hearing both in frequency response and at each decibel level.

Without the loudness circuit, tonal qualities suffer to varying degrees across all frequencies
and across all volumes.

Now think about it? What is the sense of producing amps (and speakers) and religiously adhering to the world wide industry standard of
" xxx watts at 20 to 20k +/- 3 db at rated output" if we as humans
can't make use of it or hear it? The amp and speakers are flat but we as humans have
severe deficiency regardless of the well designed amp.

The loudness circuit puts "breath" and harmonics back into artificially reproduced sound
thru amps that are specifically designed and faithfully CAPABLE of reproducing a flat frequency response that our ears can't hope to follow.


=============================================

With a compensate circuit, The best speakers are capable of reproducing accurate real world sound regardless of our lack of hearing across all volume ranges.
But She-it speakers (including many expensive over hyped speakers) with poor and or low efficiency ratings tax this system across all volume levels.

Efficient speakers with good flat frequency response aide both your (lack of) hearing and your amps (generous) ability to reproduce accurate sound across a wide spectrum of volume and frequency using a compensate circuit.

As others have pointed out, huge and or worthless Sansui "kabuki" speakers make even the smallest most beautiful (warm) 1964 era 6 watt tube amp proclaim utter dominance while hugely inefficient (low dbl rated) speakers are utterly useless even with the most beautiful warm tube amp ever built.
Even the human hearing compensated loudness circuit is restricted at low volumes with these
often over-hyped inefficient speakers.

Now I don't know about you but I have noticed that supposed "high end audiophiles" pay huge amounts for powerful amps today only to run them (with gusto) trying to liven up lowly inefficient and over priced "loud" speakers.

That's not what the average Sansui G-9700 or AU-9500 owner bought their amps (new) for.
Most bought these amps for high "wattage in the cottage" and most still tend to play them with gusto.

==============================================

Sansui gave us all manner of amps (from low to extremely powerful) while maintaining the truest of sound reproduction. Many here bought based on rated specs of xx watts 20 to 20k +/- 3db and many bought based on Loudness, wattage Volume.
Sansui gave us nicely matched (efficient) speakers with genuine flat frequency response curves to match the flat response curve of the amplifiers.
Sansui even gave us things like 300 watt per channel G-33000 receivers and designed
efficient 350 watt speakers (spx-11000) to match both output and wattage of the G-33000.

And they even had the forethought to include a well designed loudness circuit to compensate for our lack of hearing.

-If you take any one of those 3 things away you are missing the full picture.
Go ahead, Use your beloved G-9700 with a pair of "magicpans" while keeping the volume lowish so you don't purify and crush the utter gonads out of your precious $$$$$ speakers.

Yes High end powerful amps with lowly inefficient speakers at low volumes works for some
while others prefer to hear a pin drop, and/or breadth and all the necessary 1st to 5th order harmonics at all levels including Intercontinental Nuclear Missile Earth Shaking.

Thru all this there should be one take away.
And that is:
the audio industry had to pick a standard to rate both amp and speakers at
and they did, we've all seen it a billion times:
xxx watts from 20 to 20 k +/-3 db both channels driven.
This puts all manufacturers on the same page.
Now within that industry standard for amps and speakers
there is one thing they could not standardize or deviate from
and that is
Your individual hearing.
So they designed the amps to be perfectly capable of flat frequency response
(which is counter to our hearing)
So the best of them gave us accurate loudness circuits to allow the totally flat amps/speakers
to also reproduce what We As Humans Actually Hear.

Anybody that tells you differently has got their head to far their audiophile azz.


Efficient speakers compliment exceptional amplifiers and
Loudness is your friend but that is your choice.


View attachment 1554937


.
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That's not what I was asking. But just let it go at this point.
 
kevzep said:
How is your amp going in any case? Are you enjoying it?
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Going great. With the battery tip on the stored Stations I cleaned and replaced and now working. Looking for someone to do the tuner adjustment fix. If not I will try to do myself.

zdb8900 get's better and better everyday with the SA's. That's one Powerful receiver. Sold my G-5500 on ebay that the zdb replaced. Only took 1 hour to sell the G-5500. LOL!

Can barely tell the difference in the 2. The zdb does seems to separate details just a bit better. Again thanks for everyone's help here.
 
kevzep said:
proper loudness circuit is variable, the Fletcher Munson curve changes depending on the level at the time.
McIntosh and Yamaha have excellent loudness controls that are very good at compensating for that.

Show me a Sansui which has this?
Click to expand...

As a keeper of useless trivia, I have to break silence.

The otherwise unremarkable C-77

Carry on
 
kevzep said:
A proper loudness circuit is variable, the Fletcher Munson curve changes depending on the level at the time.
McIntosh and Yamaha have excellent loudness controls that are very good at compensating for that.

Show me a Sansui which has this?
Click to expand...

Sansui S-X1200 has a variable loudness. Not like the Yamaha receivers where you use it as the level control, but variable none the less.

I don't really care for it though.

Rob
 
I'll chime in here as well, the A-80 integrated amp has a variable loudness contour via a pot (typical 0-10 markings on panel). It works well enough, but I doubt it is on par with the circuits devised by Yamaha or McIntosh. C-77 mentioned above is part of this same series (supercompo) from the early 80's.
 
Okay so theres a few it looks like, odd models out of the mainstream.....and again it seems the idea was there but perhaps not quite the accuracy needed...
The McIntosh one was quite good, and a lot of people complained when they discontinued it, the subject still comes up from time to time in the Mc forum...
 
Yeah, looks like Sansui toyed with the concept from about 1980-84 or so. I'd forgotten about the SX-1200 receiver being setup that way. Apparently it didn't catch though, as all later (c. 1985 onward) loudness equipped Sansui models I'm aware of went back to standard on/off preset loudness control.
 
Robisme said:
I have had many 7900Z receivers, and I can tell you that some have a sticker on the back stating A or B 8 to 16ohms, and others have a sticker that reads A or B 4 to 16 ohms.

I always assumed that the 8 to 16ohm models were the later ones, and the rating was changed after issues. But, I had two at one time and the 4 ohm unit was newer.

I did not see any obvious circuit differences.

Again, just sayin'.

Rob
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Yes, 8 Ohm only on the 8900ZDB! Where the outputs are tucked away they get pretty hot. Especially the right 2 transistors. 4 Ohms will heat them up even more.
 
I might note that the 9900Z has a special heatsink with a refrigerant filled copper tube run through aluminum fins and also has a thermostat controlled fan. None of the lower models in the series had the fan, and were all passively cooled. I know the 7900Z and below didn't have the special heatsink either. Not sure about the 8900ZDB though. Thus, operation into a 4 ohm load is not suggested, and is taking a risk with these models.

Another intersting facet of the 9900Z design is that it supports 3 speaker systems (A/B/C) and while there are three push buttons on the front panel to select the speaker systems in use, the actual switching is done indirectly by relays, and a priority switching assignment assures only two can be active at once, even if all three switches are on.

Systems A and B always get priority, so you can have A and B, A and C or B and C on simultaneously. In other words, anytime A and B are both on, C is effectively locked out. This keeps the load from going too low; assuming one isn't using 4 ohm rated speakers for one or more pairs connected.
 
Sansuiman said:
I might note that the 9900Z has a special heatsink with a refrigerant filled copper tube run through aluminum fins and also has a thermostat controlled fan. None of the lower models in the series had the fan, and were all passively cooled. I know the 7900Z and below didn't have the special heatsink either. Not sure about the 8900ZDB though. Thus, operation into a 4 ohm load is not suggested, and is taking a risk with these models.

Another intersting facet of the 9900Z design is that it supports 3 speaker systems (A/B/C) and while there are three push buttons on the front panel to select the speaker systems in use, the actual switching is done indirectly by relays, and a priority switching assignment assures only two can be active at once, even if all three switches are on.

Systems A and B always get priority, so you can have A and B, A and C or B and C on simultaneously. In other words, anytime A and B are both on, C is effectively locked out. This keeps the load from going too low; assuming one isn't using 4 ohm rated speakers for one or more pairs connected.
Click to expand...

The 8900ZDB and 9900Z are virtually identical. They have the same amp boards, PS board, tuner, etc, but the 9900Z has 8 output transistors (and of course a higher voltage transformer) to get the 160WPC. And as you mention, the fan is only on the 9900Z. The 8900ZDB only has A and B speakers as well, no C speakers. The MT200 output transistors should be only used with 8 Ohm or higher speakers. The 8900ZDB specifically states for A or B 8 Ohm or higher, and 16 Ohm only for A+B.
 
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