Sansui CD-10 electronic crossover network

[Sui-Yogi]

Time to start with the last part of the act, using the CD-10 crossover with 2x AU-X11 and 1xAU-907Limited.

Anyone who is in need of a
service manual/schematics,operating manual and the brochure you can PM me and I will forward it to you via e-mail .
The documents are in Japanese and Google translate won’t help much, of course if you have some knowledge about how crossovers are working , will be easier to understand what is “lost in translation”,
I don’t , so I’m a bit in a struggle to figure out how it works .
At page two the manufacturer is pointing out clearly that this product might not be for me ….

At the moment , following this info from the service manual:


I manage to connect it and “set it up” just to have a point of reference before/after restoration.
My passive crossover

Visaton HW 3/120 NG , upgraded with polypropylene caps and high-surge resistors , is doing better … ( consider that I might have made mistakes setting up the CD-10) but I can see and hear that an electronic crossover will only benefit the sound , if it’s correct adjust .

I’ll keep you updated along the restoration,if anyone has a comment or an idea how to go about it, you are more than wellcome !!!

It goes with out saying that I have read the relevant threads. Many thanks especially to Jomark911 and super98lsc for their detailed threads, it’s been much help ! Sorry if I’m forgetting someone.

 

[RedPanda]

oooh, being I am thinking of getting the CD-10 ill msg ya for the scans.

 

[GrisPato]

Really interested in this because I want to run my SP-1001 active, as you know.
I see that the Visaton x-over has 800/5000 Hz so you tried the CD-10 with 3-way-3 position?
I downloaded the schematic of the Visaton x-over but it doesn't have any resistors and yours has. You have an older version?
Do you have any information already about sensitivity correction and/or phase shift for your drivers?
I understand correctly that you are first going to restore/upgrade the CD-10?
Are you going for all film ( except of course the power supply) and all metal?

 

[Sansuiman]

I'll be watching this thread. I recently picked up a a CD-5A (which I really need to post about) as my first foray into active crossovers, so will be interested to learn from your experience here.

 

[Sui-Yogi]

Really interested in this because I want to run my SP-1001 active, as you know.
I see that the Visaton x-over has 800/5000 Hz so you tried the CD-10 with 3-way-3 position?
I downloaded the schematic of the Visaton x-over but it doesn't have any resistors and yours has. You have an older version?
Do you have any information already about sensitivity correction and/or phase shift for your drivers?
I understand correctly that you are first going to restore/upgrade the CD-10?
Are you going for all film ( except of course the power supply) and all metal?

Here is the crossover specs and schematics , I think you might be looking at the 4ohm??

HW 3/130 NG - 8 Ohm | Visaton

Frequenzweiche aus hochwertigen Kupferspulen, MKT-Folienkondensatoren sowie verlustarmen Tonfrequenz-Elkos, auf Epoxidharz-Platten montiert. Geprüft auf Funktion, Flankensteilheit und Übernahmefrequenz.

www.visaton.de

Visaton website provides almost all specs for their loudspeakers and they are replying back to you if any questions, they are really helpful, if you know what to ask…. Even me, that I usually ask questions with “obvious” answers , I get a polite reply . So I think when and if the time comes for micro alignments I can get some help from them too .

At the moment I’m working with this loudspeakers and their graphs :




I tried at 3way-2 position as it was looking more flexible for the specs above but then the 3way-3 made more sense….as you understand….I’m lost…
I had to tern it off ,cause I took some random voltages from the buffer amplifiers F-2561 ( 6 indetical PCBs ) at the same points and all cards was reading differently to each other .
Then the power supply suppose to have between the positive and the negative rails around 22volts to 25volts

But the one side has +19VDC and the other -24VDC ….. so i turned it off , until I have a plan how to go about it .
As I see it , it’s going to be a shotgun approach with metal films , polypropylene/polystyrene caps and of course replacing the infamous 2SC1313/2SA726.
I don’t know , what do you think?

 

[Sui-Yogi]

I'll be watching this thread. I recently picked up a a CD-5A (which I really need to post about) as my first foray into active crossovers, so will be interested to learn from your experience here.

I’m kinda lost with this one, I was starting to learn and understand a few things about the amplifiers ( really few) but this is one is out of my reach.
I will post what ever I find and what ever I hear , hopefully it’s going to be helpful for few that they know more .
Please tolerate my English. If my English does not make sense , just use your imagination….. it works for me !

 

[GrisPato]

I'll be watching this thread. I recently picked up a a CD-5A (which I really need to post about) as my first foray into active crossovers, so will be interested to learn from your experience here.

Ah, I picked up one also from Japan. I thought I can always ship it to you. But you have one already now.
Curious about the price.
I paid € 56, all together will cost me around € 100

 

[Sui-Yogi]

Late last night I replaced the 24V zeners in the PSU F-2562-1 and right away the voltages straighten up . 23.6VDC and -22.9VDC now .
In 20min time I have finish the hole board and hooked it up.
Here is the original components list :

And the replacements :
2SC1364 -2SC4081
2SA733-2SA1576
2SB507-KSB1366GTU
2SD313-KSD2012GTU
Panasonic el.caps
Metal film resistors at 1% tolerance .
All components I had in hand from previous restorations.

Woofer :high cut off at 480hz
Mid :low cut off 480hz , high cut off 9.5khz
Tweeter :low cut off 9.5khz .
I’m testing with 3way-3 selection and it seams that is responding better, I’m unhooking the unit and I’m starting with the restoration of the F-2561
( buffer amplifier)

 

[Bob Chieldon]

You might find that the mid/tweeter crossover point is a smidge high at 9.5kHz, at those sorts of frequencies the midrange driver will usually be very directional and possibly in breakup depending on how large it is.

I run a three way active system in my study, crossover points are 80/3.5kHz with 6” mid drivers.

Very cool piece btw, will add it to my acquire list.

 

[Sui-Yogi]

You might find that the mid/tweeter crossover point is a smidge high at 9.5kHz, at those sorts of frequencies the midrange driver will usually be very directional and possibly in breakup depending on how large it is.

I run a three way active system in my study, crossover points are 80/3.5kHz with 6” mid drivers.

Very cool piece btw, will add it to my acquire list.

Hi Bod ,
Going active crossover is new to me so forgive my ignorance .
The midrange loudspeaker is a dome shape titanium at 50mm .
Indeed it has a breaking point at ~10,5khz here is the graph.

 

[Bob Chieldon]

Hi Bod ,
Going active crossover is new to me so forgive my ignorance .
The midrange loudspeaker is a dome shape titanium at 50mm .
Indeed it has a breaking point at ~10,5khz here is the graph.

That's a very nice driver, the frequency and polar responses are very nice and it would indeed benefit from a higher crossover point than most cone midrange drivers, for example Visaton's own AL130 M.

If you compare the two datasheets, you can see that the AL130 m (not your dome driver) starts to show nasty bumps and dips in the frequency response graph out past 5000/6000Hz, this is what I meant by saying cone breakup. The FFL graph also shows how the AL 130 M, again fairly typical of a good quality cone midrange, becomes rather lobed as the frequency increases, something that your driver shows much less of.

https://www.visaton.de/sites/default/files/dd_product/AL%20130%20M_1305.pdf

Your driver of course is better behaved at high frequencies but nevertheless the manufacturer recommends a crossover frequency of up to 5kHz.

DSM 50 FFL - 8 Ohm | Visaton

50 mm (2") High-End titanium dome driver for the midrange band between 800 and 5000 Hz. Due to the enormously strong and ultra-light titanium dome and in conjunction with a highly damped surround, linear frequency response and no partial oscillations. Due to the enormously high magnetic flux in...

www.visaton.de

What is important is that you are happy with your system but the higher the frequency to be reproduced the better it is being so by a something that approximates a point source, say a tweeter with a 25mm dome vs the 50mm dome of your midrange, and try a lower Xover frequency by way of experiment.

Remember that you would be being putting more power through a tweeter by crossing over lower and the calculation for the size of the DC blocking capcitor (if used) may need to be re-done.

 

[Sui-Yogi]

That's a very nice driver, the frequency and polar responses are very nice and it would indeed benefit from a higher crossover point than most cone midrange drivers, for example Visaton's own AL130 M.

If you compare the two datasheets, you can see that the AL130 m (not your dome driver) starts to show nasty bumps and dips in the frequency response graph out past 5000/6000Hz, this is what I meant by saying cone breakup. The FFL graph also shows how the AL 130 M, again fairly typical of a good quality cone midrange, becomes rather lobed as the frequency increases, something that your driver shows much less of.

https://www.visaton.de/sites/default/files/dd_product/AL%20130%20M_1305.pdf

Your driver of course is better behaved at high frequencies but nevertheless the manufacturer recommends a crossover frequency of up to 5kHz.

DSM 50 FFL - 8 Ohm | Visaton

50 mm (2") High-End titanium dome driver for the midrange band between 800 and 5000 Hz. Due to the enormously strong and ultra-light titanium dome and in conjunction with a highly damped surround, linear frequency response and no partial oscillations. Due to the enormously high magnetic flux in...

www.visaton.de

What is important is that you are happy with your system but the higher the frequency to be reproduced the better it is being so by a something that approximates a point source, say a tweeter with a 25mm dome vs the 50mm dome of your midrange, and try a lower Xover frequency by way of experiment.

Remember that you would be being putting more power through a tweeter by crossing over lower and the calculation for the size of the DC blocking capcitor (if used) may need to be re-done.

Thank you for chiming in!
It’s really helpful for me to understand how things functioning .
At the moment I’m restoring the unit, I think it’s pointless to adjust/align the drivers as the unit is in bad shape but I’m pretty sure by the end will “straighten up”
I found Visaton loudspeakers very convenient and highly engineered especially for their price tag. Highly recommended ,as I m “building”my own cabinets and I have used a lot of brands during the years. I was always using the crossover that was recommended so I haven’t ever “mess” with capacitors/resistors and coils .

I do not have a blocking capacitor at the tweeter , the tweeter at the moment is the G25FFL but if everything goes well with the restoration ,I will upgrade to the titanium DSM25FFL , I find no reason for a tweeter rated at 80w nominal continues power to have a fuse or a capacitor . Isn’t it the hole point with the electronic crossover to remove capacitors etc.etc from the path?
Maybe I’m wrong but I rather be careful or even burn a tweeter than adding a component in the signal path .
Again thank you for chiming in.
Cheers
Kostis

 

[Bob Chieldon]

The tweeter capacitor I am meaning isnt so much for the sound and may be well be removed but in my opinion, and somewhat bitter experience, after the system is finished.

The reason for it to protect the tweeter from accidental bursts of DC caused by faults, shorts accidents and other bad components upstream of the crossover and amplifier.

To give some sort of idea I use a MKP 22uF capacitor when setting up an active tweeter. This would equate to a first order high pass filter at something like 950Hz (for an 8 ohm driver) and being generally an octave or two at least below my active crossover cutoff frequency has no audible effect, at least to my ears. It has saved expensive tweeters from mishaps for me however.

Once you have a fully functional crossover and fully checked system, by all means remove it; though you may then decide you don’t need to.

 

[Sui-Yogi]

The tweeter capacitor I am meaning isnt so much for the sound and may be well be removed but in my opinion, and somewhat bitter experience, after the system is finished.

The reason for it to protect the tweeter from accidental bursts of DC caused by faults, shorts accidents and other bad components upstream of the crossover and amplifier.

To give some sort of idea I use a MKP 22uF capacitor when setting up an active tweeter. This would equate to a first order high pass filter at something like 950Hz (for an 8 ohm driver) and being generally an octave or two at least below my active crossover cutoff frequency has no audible effect, at least to my ears. It has saved expensive tweeters from mishaps for me however.

Once you have a fully functional crossover and fully checked system, by all means remove it; though you may then decide you don’t need to.

Okay , I think I got your point, the capacitor (some they use a fuse) can be there to protect the tweeters from accidents such as “falling RCA” or a faulty component.
I will definitely consider your suggestion until I finish the restoration !

 

[JOMARK911]

I use the same 22 μf mkp on my tweeters. Just for protection in case the protection circuit fails , and dc comes out frying my precious tweeters.

 

[Sui-Yogi]

I have finish now with the buffer amplifiers F-2561s and the mother board F-2563.
Interesting find was that this 2.2Mohm solid resistors (SR) are everything other than “solid”.All 25 of those were out of tolerance by 1000kohm the least.Here is a couple of them on the tester :


on the schematics are listed as 1Mohm but at the service manual and on the boards are 2.2Mhom.
One can say that those can consider the “black flag of the resistors “?
@JOMARK911 from the context of your posts , I think that you are not using the
CD-10 but if I’m wrong I suggest that you revisit the F-2561s , pull out a couple and measure them , I don’t think that this is a coincidence ,only in mine.
I replace all resistors with metal film 1% tolerance,for the B.P capacitors I used the 3.3uf at 25Volts as the original are rated at 16volts and the famous “Nichicon green” is at 50volts ….. others they say raising the voltage should not be a problem for the electrolytic capacitors and others they suggest that is not a good idea to go more than one “level” above .
I wonted to replace those with MKS(PET) from WIMA but the cost was a bit high and i decided to couple them with radial lead polystyrene(PS):




In two months period I made 50PNP and 50PNP SMDs 2SC2712BL and the complement to replace the 2SC1313/2SA726.
Now all voltages at common check points are the same for all 6 boards !
At the mother board,at the input, I did use
3.3uf /63v PET.
At the “bass department” there is a lot of space and I use the 3.3uf/450V (PP),available from Panasonic.



That’s all for the moment , I’m up for cleaning the “frequency switch’s” and see what happened !

 

[Sui-Yogi]

I can not attach more photos to the previous post, so here some more work done on the back of the mother board:

I do not understand why Sansui in order to reinforce a trace , first they need to cut it and then add a wire ?
Traces now are connected with silver wire “running”along the trace.




Finally I have a question if someone can help to take the right decision.

Old scratchy potentiometers that I can dioxide and make them work again, from ALPS (the original pot meters) ?
Or
New , almost a drop-in solution , with only enlarging the “lock-Key-hole”on the chassis by 0,5mm, from BOURNS?

https://www.mouser.dk/ProductDetail/Bourns/PDB182-K430K-104A?qs=h2IHEVivlqD8cnChHAVPeg%3D%3D

 

[Sui-Yogi]

Getting closer to the end of the restoration.
Those days I cleaned the frequency selector switches , carefully re-assembled and put back in the unit.
Here is the unit In exploded view


The switches and the turn over switch





And I have finish two out of the 3xF-2586
The values 0.0xxuf are replaced with polypropylene WIMA/KEMET ,the 0.00xxuf either polystyrene(PS) of C0G at 100/200VDC and the tightest tolerance .



Put it all together and I had a listen….

I will share my impressions putting some words together at the end.
Even that I know that I'm crossing not the best way for the moment , I can tell you that this is something that one’s you hear it you can not un-hear it and it’s the end of the passive crossover’s for me…. I only wish I knew before… better late than ever they say!

 

[Overundr1]

Outstanding results sir, just have to ask how many small items were attacked by the heating unit in front of the window sill

 

[Sui-Yogi]

Good observation sir.
Radiators are off at the moment,winter is coming soon but not wet, here