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School me on Dual Turntables

turbomustang

turbomustang

Well-Known Member
I have owned many vintage turntables from just about every manufacturer there was except Dual.

back when I was15 three guys moved into my neighborhood in Bellflower California from Alaska and not only did they have the best weed around they owned the first real good sounding stereo gear that i got to really evaluate.

the Turntable they had was a Dual (model unknown) and now for whatever reason i want a dual Turntable but have no clue on what are the best models so any information would be appreciated .

its funny i do not even remember the names of the guys that had the Dual Turntable because we all went by nicknames but they called me 2112 because every time i came over that was the album i wanted to hear lol
 
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Hi, I don't know what you might think is the best model in the Dual range, there are many criteria and not everyone has the same hierarchy. Usually when someone says "Dual" people visualize a 10xx or a 12xx, which were the typical automatic idlers with spring-balanced, light tonearms and the distinctive Dual look. I particularly like the 1219 and 1229, IMO the #1 cool factor in the range. They can still be found for a reasonable price too, but then you can expect it to need some care to give its best performance (the contrary would be surprising with a deck of this age). Usually it's just a cleaning & lubrication job, described in documents available on Vinylengine.
 
Hi, I don't know what you might think is the best model in the Dual range, there are many criteria and not everyone has the same hierarchy. Usually when someone says "Dual" people visualize a 10xx or a 12xx, which were the typical automatic idlers with spring-balanced, light tonearms and the distinctive Dual look. I particularly like the 1219 and 1229, IMO the #1 cool factor in the range. They can still be found for a reasonable price too, but then you can expect it to need some care to give its best performance (the contrary would be surprising with a deck of this age). Usually it's just a cleaning & lubrication job, described in documents available on Vinylengine.
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the 1219 looks like the one my friends had being it is a changer and three speeds it clicks all the right boxes mechanically and has the look i was going for so off to the bay i go,thanks

some have a wood cover that looks nice but tends to raise the price quite a bit
 
Expect any Dual idler-drive table that you bring home to require disassembly and re-lubing, which is not a job for beginners.

I personally recommend the Dual rebuild service offered by AK'er NoTransistors, who recently rebuilt a 1219 for me. It had been gummed up with old, dried out grease, but is now singing like new, thanks to his expertise. This is a marvelous turntable, by any definition.

 
beatcomber said:
Expect any Dual idler-drive table that you bring home to require disassembly and re-lubing, which is not a job for beginners.
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It can be time-consuming the first time, but after doing it myself and contributing to one of the Vinylengine tutorials I really don't find it overly difficult. No need to disassemble it completely, only a few parts that are described in the tutorials, and only if necessary. The lubricants are easy to find too. Of course, trusting a professional is the best way to go if you have the need and the money.
 
jetblack said:
Some decisions to make on used Dual TTs:

1) How much $ do I want to spend?

2) Do I want a manual, semi-auto, or auto TT?

3) Do I want a direct-drive, belt-drive, or idler-drive TT?

http://dual-reference.com/tableinx.htm
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You should expect to spend up to $400 or so for a fully restored table and go from there.

The other choices are entirely personal. But I will say if you're going to get a Dual, my personal favorite versions are the idlers. Idlers bring a life to the music that I've not experienced in any other type of table. I have 5 idlers total. I will never buy any other type of table.
 
sberger said:
You should expect to spend up to $400 or so for a fully restored table and go from there.
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Or you can do what I did... get one cheap on Craig's List (they're out there) and get it serviced by a pro. I have less than $200 total invested in the 1219 pictured above.

The other choices are entirely personal. But I will say if you're going to get a Dual, my personal favorite versions are the idlers. Idlers bring a life to the music that I've not experienced in any other type of table. I have 5 idlers total. I will never buy any other type of table.
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Idler drives definitely have their own unique thing happenin', and a Dual in good operating condition are a heckuva lotta fun to listen to.
 
The 1219/1229 refurbed are hard to beat

beatcomber said:
Expect any Dual idler-drive table that you bring home to require disassembly and re-lubing, which is not a job for beginners.

I personally recommend the Dual rebuild service offered by AK'er NoTransistors, who recently rebuilt a 1219 for me. It had been gummed up with old, dried out grease, but is now singing like new, thanks to his expertise. This is a marvelous turntable, by any definition.

Click to expand...


They were Duals top of the line rim drive idler turntable. I like both of mine. The 1219 was a fall project. After a good cleaning it has been flawless for 8!months now. Speed dead on. Has a Shure v15 type 2 cart sounds good. It's my daily driver. My 12,9 was the next model after the 1219. Added a strobe. . Both have 12 inch platters.

You should also look at the 1000 series. The 1009s and 1019 had 10 inch platters. Had several of those here for awhile. Nice turntable, speed dead on.

I have 1010S. A low end model. Had one in high school. Took years to find one with the cool deco base and plexiglass cover. Fixed it up and it sounds really good. Doesn't have the heavy platter like above but speed is steady on them. Had several 1015s around. Ten inch platter heavier than the 1010 and a arm like the 1019. Worth looking at to. Have fun in the hunt:D

Eric:music:
 
Another alternative would be Fix My Dual. Several members, including me have bought from Bill aka Bohhey. You get a walnut plinth instead of plastic and veneer and a new smokey dustcover that has been made especially for him. He has the largest parts inventory for just about any Dual table. A wonderful guy to do business with. I bought two tables from Bill, a 721 direct drive and a 1219 idler, and I have been very satisfied with both. Call Bill and tell him what you are looking for and he will recommend a Dual that would be the perfect fit for you.
 
Here's what a 1219 looks like with a German Dual base and cover!

The base and dust cover are much nicer than the US distributor used,

Eric
 

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I bought my Dual 1219 from the Berlin Brigade Audio Club in 1971. I have been happy with it for over 40 years. About 5 years ago I sent it to Bill @ Fix My Dual. He regreased, adjusted and tweaked it to sound better than it ever had. My Shure V15 Type IV from 1981 received a Jico SAS stylus last year and that made another significant improvement in sound. I admit to a bias for the 1219, but I think you would be happy with it particularly if you invested in having it refurbed.
 
I'm curious about the amount of rumble these rim drive Dual Turntables have. I had a Dual 1229 in the late 70s that I bought brand new. The motor noise was quite obvious between tracks and during quiet parts of songs. I got rid of it after a year and got a direct drive Technics which was and remains completely silent.

Many people hear love their rim drive (idler drive) Duals and I'd love to know why and what they do about the rumble. A cousin of mine recently brought me a Dual 1209 to fix. I lubed it and cleaned it and sure enough there was a lot of rumble, just as I remember on the 1229. The idler wheel on the 1209 was still soft and pliable so it wasn't an issue of a hard idler wheel causing the noise.

I'd appreciate any feedback and education on these rim drive Duals.
 
Any idler is noisier than a decent belt or direct drive, due to the motor rotational speed being in the audio range (100 or 120 Hz here) and the damping of an idler wheel being less than with a belt. In fact I strongly suspect that this is the explanation for special sound of idlers that some people refer to as PRAT or other fancy names, so I don't necessarily see it as a problem as long as it remains within reasonable limits. That said, it depends a lot on many factors that in turn depend on the condition of the turntable:
  • The motor bearings can run dry, which causes a screeching sound.
  • The rim can be dirty or oxidized, causing irregular surface hence rumble.
  • Same thing with the main bearing, with the same effect (particularly audible).
  • The idler wheel must by perfectly round otherwise it will cause rumble (can be solved)
  • The idler wheel rubber must be in good condition, otherwise it will loose its damping properties, whichseems to be mostly noticeable as a loudish 100 / 120 Hz peak. An idler wheel can be remade by Terry's rubber idlers though.

It is also model dependent. I've consistenly found my 1229 to be very quiet (for an idler) whereas both my 1019s show a good deal of 100 Hz hum caused by mechanical transmission from the motor. I've been told that this would be solved by new rubber on the idler wheel, but I haven't had a chance to contact Terry yet. Without a new idler wheel for comparison you can't know whether yours is in good condition: it's a progressive degradation like on pinch rollers, I wouldn't discard this explanation to your issues, especially if you are experiencing heavy 100 / 120 Hz.

You can have a look at the "Servicing Dual Continuous Pole Motors and Drive Systems" tutorial on Vinylengine for more considerations and details on how a Dual 1019/1219/1229 (among others) can be brought back to specs. It doesn't say everything, but close.
 
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jeffpaletz said:
I'm curious about the amount of rumble these rim drive Dual Turntables have. I had a Dual 1229 in the late 70s that I bought brand new. The motor noise was quite obvious between tracks and during quiet parts of songs. I got rid of it after a year and got a direct drive Technics which was and remains completely silent.
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Good question.

In the past I had owned some 1019's that were extremely rumble-y. Cleaning the drive system and even having the idler rebuilt by Terry's Rubber Rollers could not solve the problem. Is it a problem inherent with the 1019, or was it the result of the poor quality servicing these machines received from a tech I no longer give business to, I cannot say for sure.

The 1219 that NoTransistors recently rebuilt for me is as quiet as a mouse, even at reasonably high volume. My speakers - a pair of highly revealing KEF LS50's (plus a powered subwoofer) - would definitely expose any rumble if there were any.
 
I've owned the 506 since Summer of '79. It's a belt drive table, semi-auto (end of record shut off and arm lift) and very reliable.

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I've had my 1219 for a few months now, and I have not noticed any rumble. Of course, I do not sit by the turntable as I am 6 to 8 feet away. Even pausing between tracks I do not hear anything.
 
I had a Dual direct drive with the ULM arm. It was rock solid, great turntable. Dual makes some nice stuff that can be had reasonably cheap.
 
I have recently fixed two idler Duals, a small 1225 and a big 1229. I'm listening to the '29 now. I can't hear the oft-quoted rumble, but maybe I'm just deaf.

They are not beautiful in the classical sense, but they have a certain mechanical elegance. And they are tanks. Very solid and dependable after the necessary cleaning, re-lubing and basic repairs.
AFAIK the US market isn't as huge as the German one. Over here, you can buy them unrestored for 2-digit money all day and fix them up. Or pay €150-350 for a restored item.

A few weeks ago I saw a perfectly restored small 1225 with a new needle going for €53 on the German 'bay.
 
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