Sennheiser HD 598 and analog source

[police_50]

Recently I've got Sennheiser HD 598 in burl wood accent. Ergonomically they feel really great, they are comfortable, with long enough cord, nicely designed, etc. When I plugged them to my Sansui G 8000 the sound was kinda muddy and flat, without any amplitude, just bad! Then I did it to the rest of my analog amps, and the result was the same: mids and highs are more or less okey, but lows are distorted. Then, as the last resort, I used my iPhone as a source of sound, and what a difference it made! Crispy, nice highs, perfect lows and balanced mids, just what would you expect from these headphones.
I'm not a specialist in analog/digital conversion, but apparently the source of sound matters. What would be a solution for this problem? If you can advise any headphone amp (I suspect this would be a recommendation) that would be really helpful. Please help!

 

[RamblinE]

Googled iPhone headphone impedance

iPhone 5 Frequency Response, driving Ultrasone Edition 8 (32Ω). The near-zero (4.5 Ω) output impedance of the iPhone 5 is much better (lower) than most dedicated headphone amplifiers, even most exotic audiophile amps, and therefore its response is not significantly affected by the headphones in use.

This thread on Headfi discusses output impedance of vintage amps http://www.head-fi.org/t/572819/power-headphones-with-reciever

I am posting this stuff because my knee-jerk reaction to your post is that it's counter-intuitive. The iPhone shouldn't sound bad, but it shouldn't sound better.
Power hungry headphones and higher impedance headphones match up much better with vintage amps in my experience though as they're much more along the lines of what those headphone outputs were designed to work with. A lot of the better headphones sold in the 70s and early 80s were 600+ ohm where your Sennheiser's are 32 ohm like the Ultrasone's in my quote above. Current production headphones are mostly designed to work with portable players, cellphones, and computers. I'd be curious to see what a modern headphone amp running off of your receiver's 'tape out' sounds like. However that can start to cost, $100 to spend on an amplifier as an experiment might not be worth it.
So while I'm no expert I think the source of the problem here is probably a very big impedance mismatch between your headphones and what you're trying to use as an amplifier. Something higher impedance and hungrier for current may work better, like the Sennheiser HD650 at 300ohms or the 250ohm Beyerdynamic DT770.

 

[Djcoolray]

The G8000 has a wonderful headphone preamp, I'd spray some Deoxit up inside the headphone socket and work it with a Q-tip. If that doesn't work, I'd figure the receiver needs to be checked....

 

[police_50]

RamblinE: thanks for the link, it's an interesting discussion. Definitely for me (and I can hear that) there is a difference in sound quality for low impedance modern cans if the source of the signal is analog. I guess people need to be aware of this "problem" as I had no clue when I was looking for decent modern cans for my vintage setup.

Djcoolray: I have 3 different vintage Suis and one Pioneer, and all of them have similar quality sound quality with these cans. I will definitely deoxit them (who knows what is inside these 3.5mm holes after over 30 + years )

I will try to borrow a headphone amp (or higher end amp) to try in tape out and let you know.

 

[keilau]

The G8000 has a wonderful headphone preamp, I'd spray some Deoxit up inside the headphone socket and work it with a Q-tip. If that doesn't work, I'd figure the G8000 receiver needs to be checked....

The Sansui G8000 does NOT have a separated headphone amp and uses a pad down resistor to tap it off the regular power amp output. Such arrangement destroy the bass quality and any transient performance of the HD598. (Check the service manual for the actual circuitry.)

RamblinE: thanks for the link, it's an interesting discussion. Definitely for me (and I can hear that) there is a difference in sound quality for low impedance modern cans if the source of the signal is analog. I guess people need to be aware of this "problem" as I had no clue when I was looking for decent modern cans for my vintage setup.

Djcoolray: I have 3 different vintage Suis and one Pioneer, and all of them have similar quality sound quality with these cans. I will definitely deoxit them (who knows what is inside these 3.5mm holes after over 30 + years )

I will try to borrow a headphone amp (or higher end amp) to try in tape out and let you know.

A headphone amp with low Z (high current) capacity will make all the difference in the world. I have the HD598. It is a low impedance (50 ohms) phone. Even an ordinary op-amp based headphone amp (as in mid range pre-amp or CD player or DAC) can improve it. Among the low cost head amp, the Shanling PH100 is rated high. On the high end, Audio Techanica AT-HA5000 is very good, but probably out of range in price (~$1200) for most users. HD598 sounds better with solid state than tube. You can can find more about HD598 in the long post (over 400 pages) at the Head-Fi Forum.

The Sennheiser HD598 is one of the most neutral and best sounding headphone without breaking the bank. I like mine a lot.

 

[Electone]

I use my 598s with my Yamaha C4 preamp and they sound fantastic.

 

[asilker]

Smart phones are very competitive products. You'll have to spend a bit to decidedly better your iPhone audio out. Compared to your average PC, the DAC and headphone driving chips will be much better sounding.

Pick up a used Schiit headphone amp designed for the load and response of a headphone. If you don't like it you'll be able to get of it quick because the company is a hugely recognized right now

 

[Djcoolray]

The Sansui G8000 does NOT have a separated headphone amp and uses a pad down resistor to tap it off the regular power amp output. Such arrangement destroy the bass quality and any transient performance of the HD598. (Check the service manual for the actual circuitry.)



A headphone amp with low Z (high current) capacity will make all the difference in the world. I have the HD598. It is a low impedance (50 ohms) phone. Even an ordinary op-amp based headphone amp (as in mid range pre-amp or CD player or DAC) can improve it. Among the low cost head amp, the Shanling PH100 is rated high. On the high end, Audio Techanica AT-HA5000 is very good, but probably out of range in price (~$1200) for most users. HD598 sounds better with solid state than tube. You can can find more about HD598 in the long post (over 400 pages) at the Head-Fi Forum.

The Sennheiser HD598 is one of the most neutral and best sounding headphone without breaking the bank. I like mine a lot.

I'm sorry...

It's just that all the many years, I've never known a high end receiver that needed an external headphone preamp. I'm sure there is a few, it's just that I've never known of one. Fact is the reviews of the product seemed to give high marks for headphone clarity.

 

[darkblue94]

I use my 598's with a Bottlehead Crack w/Speedball upgrade and it's a great combination. I don't have any receivers currently in rotation else I would try one of those. The do sound awesome plugged directly into my Sony ES SACD player but I prefer the sound of the tubes.

 

[keilau]

I'm sorry...

It's just that all the many years, I've never known a high end receiver that needed an external headphone preamp. I'm sure there is a few, it's just that I've never known of one. Fact is the reviews of the product seemed to give high marks for headphone clarity.

Djcoolray, I don't want to sound argumentative. I have not seen a receiver, high end or otherwise, to have a separate headphone amplifier. They connect the loudspeaker output through a resistor of a few hundred ohms to the headphone jack. The padding resistor is a current limiter to protect the headphone, but it also turns out to be a sound quality destroyer. I cannot say that it (separate headphone amplifier in receiver) never happened. But it is extremely rare, if ever.

Most of the high end power or pre amp do not provide a headphone jack. But mid range pre-amp sometimes do, as most of the CD player. Most from a low power amp IC chip which sounds a lot better than the pad downed speaker outputs.

I have a Taiyuan Zero DAC which has a very high quality headphone amplifier on separate PCB that sounds wonderful with the HD598. I have never tried the HD598 with a tube headphone amp, but saw a lot of negative comment on the tube, HD598 combo at the Head-Fi post I cited earlier.

 

[darkblue94]

I have never tried the HD598 with a tube headphone amp,

I have actually tried it and I find that actual experience beats the hell out of reading about it on the internet, kinda like sex in that way.

 

[Djcoolray]

Djcoolray, I don't want to sound argumentative. I have not seen a receiver, high end or otherwise, to have a separate headphone amplifier. They connect the loudspeaker output through a resistor of a few hundred ohms to the headphone jack. The padding resistor is a current limiter to protect the headphone, but it also turns out to be a sound quality destroyer. I cannot say that it (separate headphone amplifier in receiver) never happened. But it is extremely rare, if ever.

Most of the high end power or pre amp do not provide a headphone jack. But mid range pre-amp sometimes do, as most of the CD player. Most from a low power amp IC chip which sounds a lot better than the pad downed speaker outputs.

I have a Taiyuan Zero DAC which has a very high quality headphone amplifier on separate PCB that sounds wonderful with the HD598. I have never tried the HD598 with a tube headphone amp, but saw a lot of negative comment on the tube, HD598 combo at the Head-Fi post I cited earlier.

I'm sorry if I seem tedious....and excuse my ignorance, but I have noticed so many people using external headphone preamps and wondered why I don't need one. I have a set of Sennheizer headphones and my experience has been nothing short of spectacular, but I was also wondering about using a tube headphone preamp. I figured, since I don't have to turn the volume way up, I didn't need an external headphone preamp but was just thinking it might sound better if I could. I know you seem to be the expert, so I was hoping you would now.

 

[The Loner]

I just received my hd598 pair on the 18th of this month and was not too impressed with the sound. All I have right now to try them on is my Marantz CD5004 CD player the player has 18mw. with it's own volume control and I was wondering if maybe, a headphone amp with more output capability might also be built for better sound quality?

 

[darksolstice]

Here is what I use with my Sennheiser HD 598's and it sounds wonderful ! I Have rolled in some new tubes, GOLD GRID 6N6P for the power tubes and GE JAN 5654W Military 6AK5 tubes for the preamp, highly recommended.

 

[darkblue94]

I just received my hd598 pair on the 18th of this month and was not too impressed with the sound. All I have right now to try them on is my Marantz CD5004 CD player the player has 18mw. with it's own volume control and I was wondering if maybe, a headphone amp with more output capability might also be built for better sound quality?

Yes the 598's should be paired with a correctly matched headphone amplifier to experience what they're capable of.

 

[police_50]

Following the recommendations of darksolstice I've ordered the Little Dot MK III and has no regrets. This little tube amp/preamp got the job done! Wonderful sound of high quality headphones. Thanks!
Problem solved, i guess.

 

[keilau]

Yes the 598's should be paired with a correctly matched headphone amplifier to experience what they're capable of.

It is all a question of "matching". A tube amp that works well with a 600 ohm phone may not be the best for the HD598.

The Sennheiser HD598 is a low impedance (50 ohms) phone which requires a higher power solid state headphone amp, say capable of 500 mW at 50 ohm, to show off its dynamic range. A low output impedance of the amp will get better bass control. A 100 mW tube amp may sound sweet and musical, but does not necessarily brings out what the HD598 is capable of. You may need a really high end tube headphone amp for the HD598.

Occasionally, I plug the HD598 directly into my Ipad headphone outlet. It sounds ok too, but not the best it is capable of.

I have actually tried it and I find that actual experience beats the hell out of reading about it on the internet, kinda like sex in that way.

You try it when it looks attractive to you, whatever you are talking about. I do not see entry level tube amp to be able to bring the best out of HD598 and do not want to pump down thousand of dollars for the high end. Show me a tube headphone amp capable of 500 mW at 50 ohm and has low output impedance at under $200. I will try it.

 

[darkblue94]

It is all a question of "matching". A tube amp that works well with a 600 ohm phone may not be the best for the HD598.

The Sennheiser HD598 is a low impedance (50 ohms) phone which requires a higher power solid state headphone amp, say capable of 500 mW at 50 ohm, to show off its dynamic range. A low output impedance of the amp will get better bass control. A 100 mW tube amp may sound sweet and musical, but does not necessarily brings out what the HD598 is capable of. You may need a really high end tube headphone amp for the HD598.

Occasionally, I plug the HD598 directly into my Ipad headphone outlet. It sounds ok too, but not the best it is capable of.



You try it when it looks attractive to you, whatever you are talking about. I do not see entry level tube amp to be able to bring the best out of HD598 and do not want to pump down thousand of dollars for the high end. Show me a tube headphone amp capable of 500 mW at 50 ohm and has low output impedance at under $200. I will try it.

Who said anything about an entry level tube headphone amp?

 

[keilau]

Who said anything about an entry level tube headphone amp?

See the picture in Post #14. At the same entry level price range of under $300, the solid state Shanling PH100 has 10 times more output than the Little Dot MK III for under 100 ohms phones. HD598 falls into that low impedance category.

The output impedance matching is important. The Little Dot MK III will be ideal for a 600 ohms phone.

 

[archie2]

I use my 598's with a Bottlehead Crack w/Speedball upgrade and it's a great combination. I don't have any receivers currently in rotation else I would try one of those. The do sound awesome plugged directly into my Sony ES SACD player but I prefer the sound of the tubes.

Why do you need an amp with 50 ohm phones?