• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Shure history question

Ron Pilgrim

Ron Pilgrim

Well, whadya say, Pilgrim
We all know of the famous Shure V15 series cartridges. The type five seems to command the most praise and $$. I myself prefer the type four. There's many who believe the type three was the best. And early audiophiles(almost pioneers) swear by the type two. I have never heard anything about type one. Was there even a type one? And if so, what decade was it from? Just askin....
 
Register to hide this ad
The original V-15 came out in 1964, supplanting the M44 at the top of Shure's line. The V15 Type II came out in 1966; Shure claimed it was the first computer-designed cartridge and was supposed to improve tracking ability over its predecessor. The only Shure I've really liked is the current M97xE, which Shure says is a performance upgrade over the Type IV.
 
I believe the V15 I and II led to the M90 series....

The V15III/IV/V have differing magnet / coil structure with a special laminated core etc....

The positions of the magnets in the shanks actually differ from model to model hence difficulties with exchanging styli across these models - whereas the M90 series can pretty much swap styli all up and down the series.

The biggest differences between them was in stylus cantilever structure and the associated vibration damping and control of cantilever resonance....

Now that we can only get non Shure styli things get very tricky.

The good thing is that the V15's (especially the later ones) are very good generators/coils.

But to get anything approaching their performance potential - you have to get a stylus that behaves similarly to the original in terms of vibration damping/control (and no I am not talking about the damping brush).

Having seen Thomas_A's frequency response plots of a V15VxMR SAS stylus from Jico - I would suggest that this is one of the few options that actually achieves the goal...

The tracking capabiliies of these cartridges are completely 100% dependent on the stylus - and not on the cartridge body.

The M97HE was competitive with the V15V and V15IV in many ways - the M97xE is a substantial step down.
It is Shure's current "nearest equivalent" - hence their recommendation.

An M97xE won't achieve near flat Frequency response out beyond 20kHz, in fact it drops off quite substantially, and is many decibels down by the time it hits 20kHz

Loaded correctly it can give good flat F/R out to around 15kHz

Fitted with a Jico SAS it becomes more refined, but the limitations remain.

The V15V (and V15VMR) was the one where the magnetics and the laminated cores were most sophisticated, as was the stylus.
The V15IV also has very sophisticated magnetics, I am not so sure about the III - but they were all available at the same time - and may have used the same or very similar core types.

The V15VxMR is a step down - primarily in the core magnetics, but also in the cantilever technology - still very good but not quite the no holds barred effort the earlier V15VMR was. - It has higher inductance and I believe the cantilever resonance is a lot lower down. (With the V15V/MR - the resonance was up above 33kHz)

My gut feeling is that if you don't want the damper (brush) - then the V15III may be the best option.

The IV has a sophisticated cantilever made of four seperate telescopic sections (similar to some current Grado's ??) - as part of its cantilever resonance damping tech.... the V replaced that with elastomer based damping combined with a tension wire at the rear. (Which is also what the SAS styli use)

I am not sure that a II would outperform a properly set up M90 with a good stylus (like the SAS).

But I am certain that a well setup III/IV/V has greater potential than the M series.... whether you can reach that potential depends on stylus and loading... (not to mention arm, table, system etc...)

bye for now

David
 
dlaloum said:
I believe the V15 I and II led to the M90 series....

The V15III/IV/V have differing magnet / coil structure with a special laminated core etc....

The positions of the magnets in the shanks actually differ from model to model hence difficulties with exchanging styli across these models - whereas the M90 series can pretty much swap styli all up and down the series.

The biggest differences between them was in stylus cantilever structure and the associated vibration damping and control of cantilever resonance....

Now that we can only get non Shure styli things get very tricky.

The good thing is that the V15's (especially the later ones) are very good generators/coils.

But to get anything approaching their performance potential - you have to get a stylus that behaves similarly to the original in terms of vibration damping/control (and no I am not talking about the damping brush).

Having seen Thomas_A's frequency response plots of a V15VxMR SAS stylus from Jico - I would suggest that this is one of the few options that actually achieves the goal...

The tracking capabiliies of these cartridges are completely 100% dependent on the stylus - and not on the cartridge body.

The M97HE was competitive with the V15V and V15IV in many ways - the M97xE is a substantial step down.
It is Shure's current "nearest equivalent" - hence their recommendation.

An M97xE won't achieve near flat Frequency response out beyond 20kHz, in fact it drops off quite substantially, and is many decibels down by the time it hits 20kHz

Loaded correctly it can give good flat F/R out to around 15kHz

Fitted with a Jico SAS it becomes more refined, but the limitations remain.

The V15V (and V15VMR) was the one where the magnetics and the laminated cores were most sophisticated, as was the stylus.
The V15IV also has very sophisticated magnetics, I am not so sure about the III - but they were all available at the same time - and may have used the same or very similar core types.

The V15VxMR is a step down - primarily in the core magnetics, but also in the cantilever technology - still very good but not quite the no holds barred effort the earlier V15VMR was. - It has higher inductance and I believe the cantilever resonance is a lot lower down. (With the V15V/MR - the resonance was up above 33kHz)

My gut feeling is that if you don't want the damper (brush) - then the V15III may be the best option.

The IV has a sophisticated cantilever made of four seperate telescopic sections (similar to some current Grado's ??) - as part of its cantilever resonance damping tech.... the V replaced that with elastomer based damping combined with a tension wire at the rear. (Which is also what the SAS styli use)

I am not sure that a II would outperform a properly set up M90 with a good stylus (like the SAS).

But I am certain that a well setup III/IV/V has greater potential than the M series.... whether you can reach that potential depends on stylus and loading... (not to mention arm, table, system etc...)

bye for now

David
Click to expand...

The section I highlighted is some of the best explanation of heard on the M97HE as well as the M97XE Bravo..........................
 
I use a V-15 III / Jico SAS combo on my Dual 701 and wouldn't trade it for anything. My bedroom system uses a V-15 II with a NOS stylus on a Dual 1019. The II can't compare with the III and Jico sound but I still love it too.
 
After using V15 type2 ---I switched in 1985 to the ShureM95HE in my opinion it was a step up. Still use the 95HE to this day.
I stock piled replacement stylus over the years.
 
Anyone know the resonant frequency of the JICO SAS stylus for the V15 V and does this change with different Shure cartridge cartridges?
 
HI,
There was never a V15 Type 1. But there was an original version. It was designated just a plain V15. I owned one and I may still have it. I have kept all my cartridges from around 1965 on. But, over the years and many moves, I may have misplaced some of them.

I also had the Type II, Type III, Type IV, and Type V.

IMO, the Type V (the end of the series) was the best. I used all of these on a SME 3009 mounted on a Thorens TD124.

Sparky
 
Ron Pilgrim said:
We all know of the famous Shure V15 series cartridges. The type five seems to command the most praise and $$. I myself prefer the type four. There's many who believe the type three was the best.
Click to expand...

That's just subjective, audiophilia is an exercise in subjectivity.

Technically the IV is objectively improved over the III an the V is improved over the IV, etc.

But to be frank the III was already good enough...

If you like the V15-IV try it's main competitor, the Stanton 881S or pickering XSV/3000, 4000, etc. Not everyone liked the Shure V15s.
Also try the ADC Super XLM II or III. I liked the Super XLM II much more than the Shure V15-IV.
 
For real life, everyday use, I prefer the Stanton 681 EEE-S II or the 881 or 981 to most of the V 15 lineup. The V 15 Type III G and IV G were my favorites of all. I presently use the Shure M 44-G as daily fare and actually find it superior to the M 97xE in use. And frequency response and tracking equal or better.
 
G'day all, once again this thread shows that everybody has their phono cartridge 'likes and dislikes', although I am rather saddened to see a discussion on early Shures (almost inevitably) degrade into a Shure M97xE bashing session. Sadly I almost expected that, all things considered. :yes:

Do we all have hearing 'flat to 20 KHz then? Not likely! When I was younger my hearing was almost that good, but not so now, although it's still pretty good to 15 KHz or so.

So when the 'real world' is taken into account I simply don't see what the complaints are. I try to get the best out of any any cartridge I have and I happen to love the sound of the Shure M97xE particularly at my favoured 62 k resistive loading. What's wrong with that? Nothing. Each to their own favoured. :yes: Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
Last edited:
catman said:
G'day all, once again this thread shows that everybody has their phono cartridge 'likes and dislikes', although I am rather saddened to see a discussion on early Shures (almost inevitably) degrade into a Shure M97xE bashing session. Sadly I almost expected that, all things considered. :yes:

Do we all have hearing 'flat to 20 KHz then? Not likely! When I was younger my hearing was almost that good, but not so now, although it's still pretty good to 15 KHz or so.

So when the 'real world' is taken into account I simply don't see what the complaints are. I try to get the best out of any any cartridge I have and I happen to love the sound of the Shure M97xE particularly at my favoured 62 k resistive loading. What's wrong with that? Nothing. Each to their own favoured. :yes: Regards, Felix aka catman.
Click to expand...
As I've said before, bashers love to bash just to hear themselves bash, or something like that. Your hearing sounds familiar. Between tinnitus and other hearing issues I'm happy when they do function well enough to enjoy any piece of equipment I have.
 
catman said:
Do we all have hearing 'flat to 20 KHz then? Not likely! When I was younger my hearing was almost that good, but not so now, although it's still pretty good to 15 KHz or so.
Click to expand...

Agree, Felix!

Back on topic, i used to be a blind fanatic of the V15 until i tried a Pickering XSV/3000 (Stanton 881S) i bought for pennies. I only could find a Stanton D89AL heavy tracking conical; the Stereohedron is difficult to get and pretty expensive. Plus, if i wanted to buy another stylus i'd buy one for the V15, right? Well, i tested the XSV and it sounded very musical, to my surprise, so kept it in one fo my turntables for frequent use. Actually i must have like it a bit since it's the first stylus i have worn down.
 
catman said:
G'day all, once again this thread shows that everybody has their phono cartridge 'likes and dislikes', although I am rather saddened to see a discussion on early Shures (almost inevitably) degrade into a Shure M97xE bashing session. Sadly I almost expected that, all things considered. :yes:

Do we all have hearing 'flat to 20 KHz then? Not likely! When I was younger my hearing was almost that good, but not so now, although it's still pretty good to 15 KHz or so.

So when the 'real world' is taken into account I simply don't see what the complaints are. I try to get the best out of any any cartridge I have and I happen to love the sound of the Shure M97xE particularly at my favoured 62 k resistive loading. What's wrong with that? Nothing. Each to their own favoured. :yes: Regards, Felix aka catman.
Click to expand...

Wasn't bashing.... I have it and I like it.... (well the needle in the various p-mount versions)

But objectively the design is flawed in that it depends on the mechanical resonance balancing out the electrical shoulder... (and a touch of electrical resonance filling out the midrange).

To me that seems like engineering in a series of counter balancing flaws.... with an end result that is pleasing. but....

The objectively "right" way to do it would be to get a stylus with a resonance well outside the audible range, and mate it with a body/generator/cable capacitance that has the shoulder and/or any electrical peak also outside the audible range....

So low inductance cartridge with low capacitance cable - combined with a stylus that is engineered right.

Then you are no longer using differing flaws to balance each other out - you have moved the flaws outside the hearing range....

If Jico made a N97xE SAS stylus where the resonance frequency was more like the V15V (ie out beyond 25k+) - it could be combined with a M97 body, and very low capacitance cable (100pf or lower) to get V15 like performance.

This is what I was hoping for when I purchased the N97xE SAS - but instead Jico have opted to maintain the tone and compromises made by the original Shure engineers (a valid choice too...) resulting in a needle with a very similar sound to the original. (improved in detail, and trackability, etc...)

I have tested the various bodies with the N97xE-SAS stylus - and yes it does sound great...

But for archival purposes - I was trying to achieve a flat (or as flat as possible) 20Hz-20kHz - and based on my modelling it is simply impossible with this stylus.

The almost identical V15VxMR SAS stylus on the other hand is different - it was measured by Thomas_A (published the plot in a thread on VE).

The plot shows an almost flat F/R out to 20kHz, with a small resonant peak around 14kHz.
Running the sums on his capacitance/inductance showed that the small bump coincided with the expected electrical resonance - in other words, running the same setup with much lower capacitance would result in a gradual light droop in the high end (as per the original V15VxMR F/R - balanced out in his setup by the resonant boost) but no resonance or peaks in sight within the audio range.... (ie mechanical resonance is outside the audio range)

The V15V / V15VMR suffer a lot less from the gradual HF droop - due to better core design compared to the V15VxMR (or for that matter the M series).
Take a stylus response as assumed via the above deductions for the V15VMR SAS - fit it to the V15V (or VST-V or Ultra500) with its superior core - and you have a closer approximation to a perfect MM cartridge.

This is NOT dissing the M97 and the rest of the M series - but it IS accepting and noting the limitations of the design and the compromises made by the engineers when they designed it. (I have quite a collection of the p-mount M's.... 1000e, Me75p, DT25p, M105 they are very nice...)

tmblack - I have been asking for information on the mechanical resonance of the V15VMR SAS stylus everywhere I could think of with absolutely no responses.

What I did was apply the electrical modelling maths to the plot published by Thomas_A in VE - from this I can deduce that there is no resonance within the plotted audio range.

Beyond 20kHz it also gets difficult to measure response - most test records stop at 20kHz, even running them at 45rpm only gets you up to 27kHz.
(I have managed to find a vintage Denon test disc that goes to 50kHz -so once I get hold of one I will be able to identify the resonance... I hope).

bye for now

David
 
Felix, the Old M 97 ED and HE are among my favorite cartridges. And are 99% of a Shure V 15 Type IV, their technology being a spin off of that superb pickup. I just wish the new M 97xE was more worthy of the Shure legend, functionally it is closer to the old M 97 EJ. Which was itself a fine cartridge for the price. Shure, alas is less committed and less passionate about us phonophiles. We're not enough money to them yet. I wish they would discover Boron for cantilevers and give us the new V 15 Type VI.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
Felix, the Old M 97 ED and HE are among my favorite cartridges. And are 99% of a Shure V 15 Type IV, their technology being a spin off of that superb pickup. I just wish the new M 97xE was more worthy of the Shure legend, functionally it is closer to the old M 97 EJ. Which was itself a fine cartridge for the price. Shure, alas is less committed and less passionate about us phonophiles. We're not enough money to them yet. I wish they would discover Boron for cantilevers and give us the new V 15 Type VI.
Click to expand...

That's ok not to worry - Jico have provided it for us!
 
G'day all, yes Kent what has happened to Shure is just a 'sign of the times' sadly.

I still have memories of my very early adolescence when Shure cartridges meant the 'best', and the V15III was the king of the heap.

Even back then I wanted one. :yes: It was the reference against which everything else was judged. Bring back 1973 (for some things anyway. :D) Regards, Felix aka catman.

Addition: I wonder if Shure are aware of Jico? :scratch2:
 
I read a rumour somewhere that Jico amongst others were approached with regards to continuing making the original V15 styli with the beryllium cantilevers.

But Shure got knocked back as no one wanted to deal with the OH&S issues of beryllium, and shure did not want to go back to the drawing board and re-design a new stylus.... so they discontinued the V15's.

Jico have spent the design time and effort in designing their SAS, and now are reaping the rewards...

I am sure that Shure are aware of Jico - but they appear uninterested in the audiophile vinyl market - not enough of us around to make a business case for them apparently.
 
G'day mate, interesting information. Yes Beryllium, like many substances is a very useful but hazardous, indeed potentially carcinogenic substance in its fabrication.

Strangely enough with the use of resistive loading optimisation that I and others use, this approach has been long 'hinted at' by Shure in their cartridge instruction manuals in the comment about (resistive) cartridge loading. Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom