Shure V15 IV or...

[DAA]

Sadly, I damaged my original V15 IV stylus yesterday. So my dilemma is, replace with a current stylus or new cartridge.

I am leaning towards a VOM basic elliptical for $35. Have read good things about. Maybe spending for the LP Gear Vivid Line. Don’t want to get into JICO/SAS money now.

But, considering a new cartridge too. Sub-$200 MM—used ok too, if clean.

TT is a Dual 701. Right now using my Stanton 500 MK ll with EE stylus. Pretty damn good! Maybe just get the upgrade for that.

Opinions welcome...

 

[SterlingOne]

I have no experience with V15IV. I have two V15V-MR's One with OEM stylus, the other with Jico SAS. I can not distinguish any divergence in sound between the two. As I recall, the SAS stylus was about $300. Since it produces a sound free of distortion and a tone similar to CDs, I am pleased with it. I think you would be pleased too.

 

[olddude55]

I had a V15IV with an SAS stylus years ago. The IV is one of two Shure carts vastly improved by the SAS (the other is the M97xe), but before I spent $300 on an SAS stylus, I'd spend $250 on an AT VM540ML. Better cartridge all around, IMO.

 

[ghamilton]

Sadly, I damaged my original V15 IV stylus yesterday. So my dilemma is, replace with a current stylus or new cartridge.

I am leaning towards a VOM basic elliptical for $35. Have read good things about. Maybe spending for the LP Gear Vivid Line. Don’t want to get into JICO/SAS money now.

But, considering a new cartridge too. Sub-$200 MM—used ok too, if clean.

TT is a Dual 701. Right now using my Stanton 500 MK ll with EE stylus. Pretty damn good! Maybe just get the upgrade for that.

Opinions welcome...

Put a vivid line on it and dont look back.

 

[motrctyman]

I have three Shure V15 Type IV's.
1: VOM Elliptical .3x.7
2: Jico Elliptical .3x.7
3: VividLine

To me, I cannot hear a lot of difference between the VOM and the Jico. Both sound very good, but never had an OE stylus to compare it to. I do, however, very much like the sound of it on a Pioneer PL-540.

The VividLine is, to me, a substantial upgrade. It has less surface noise, a bit better separation, and what I perceive to be a better high end.

I have all three mounted on headshells and can swap them back and forth pretty easily and have done a ton of listening to all three of them. I now use just the VOM/Pfansthiel for new-used records to play the first time and my VividLine for any real listening.

 

[jmchrislip]

LP Gear Vividline without hesitation.

 

[MCM_Fan]

I have three Shure V15 Type IV's.
1: VOM Elliptical .3x.7
2: Jico Elliptical .3x.7
3: VividLine

To me, I cannot hear a lot of difference between the VOM and the Jico. Both sound very good, but never had an OE stylus to compare it to. I do, however, very much like the sound of it on a Pioneer PL-540.

The VividLine is, to me, a substantial upgrade. It has less surface noise, a bit better separation, and what I perceive to be a better high end.

I have all three mounted on headshells and can swap them back and forth pretty easily and have done a ton of listening to all three of them. I now use just the VOM/Pfansthiel for new-used records to play the first time and my VividLine for any real listening.

LP Gear Vividline without hesitation.

I very recently found myself in possession of a V15 Type IV. It came on a turntable I purchased. It came with a Pfansthiel VN35E stylus that had been installed by a local dealer. I suspect the couple I purchased it from told the dealer to install the cheapest stylus that would fit as they planned to sell the turntable.

Personally, I think this cartridge deserves better. First question, what is the difference between the Pfansthiel VN35E and VN45E (other than the label)? VOM sells both. Both are listed as Pfansthiel Swiss, 0.3 x 0.7 mil elliptical. The tracking force range for the VN35E is listed as 1.0 - 1.25g and for the VN45E it's 1.0 - 1.5g. The difference of note is the VN45E sells for > 2x as much as the VN35E. Even the VOM sates that the VN35E is compatible with tje V15 Type IV cartridge. Is the VN45E really a better stylus, or is it just the same stylus with a different label for twice the price?

Second question: with the most recent price increase, the VividLine for the V15 Type IV is now within $40 of the price of the SAS from various eBay sellers. Is it not worth the $40 difference to move up to the boron cantilever and finer profile stone? Is the VividLine really THAT good? Or is the SAS not all that spectacular in spite of the more advanced construction? Or are the eBay SAS sellers not legit? When the VividLine was selling for 80 bucks an the SAS north of 200, the Vividline seemed like a great bargain. At the current 40 buck difference, I'm wondering if that's still true.

 

[dfunghi]

I guess out of the budget but my V15 (III, IV and V) all went to either Andy Kim or Joe (departed AK member, PM me for info if you want) for re tips and all have served me well. I think the Shure V 15 series is my favorite MM carts, but I am no expert and surely no fanatic as I only own about 10 carts for three TT.

 

[olddude55]

I very recently found myself in possession of a V15 Type IV. It came on a turntable I purchased. It came with a Pfansthiel VN35E stylus that had been installed by a local dealer. I suspect the couple I purchased it from told the dealer to install the cheapest stylus that would fit as they planned to sell the turntable.

Personally, I think this cartridge deserves better. First question, what is the difference between the Pfansthiel VN35E and VN45E (other than the label)? VOM sells both. Both are listed as Pfansthiel Swiss, 0.3 x 0.7 mil elliptical. The tracking force range for the VN35E is listed as 1.0 - 1.25g and for the VN45E it's 1.0 - 1.5g. The difference of note is the VN45E sells for > 2x as much as the VN35E. Even the VOM sates that the VN35E is compatible with tje V15 Type IV cartridge. Is the VN45E really a better stylus, or is it just the same stylus with a different label for twice the price?

Second question: with the most recent price increase, the VividLine for the V15 Type IV is now within $40 of the price of the SAS from various eBay sellers. Is it not worth the $40 difference to move up to the boron cantilever and finer profile stone? Is the VividLine really THAT good? Or is the SAS not all that spectacular in spite of the more advanced construction? Or are the eBay SAS sellers not legit? When the VividLine was selling for 80 bucks an the SAS north of 200, the Vividline seemed like a great bargain. At the current 40 buck difference, I'm wondering if that's still true.

The VL stylus is a hyper elliptical, the Swiss stylus is a regular elliptical and it isn't the same size as the OE Shure elliptical. The diamond is not cut to the same dimensions and you will hear the difference.
IMO, the old Shure isn't worth saving. It wasn't one of Shure's best efforts (I bought one when they first came out and was mightily disappointed. It sounded dead compared to the far superior V15III). Move on; spend the money on a current production cartridge supported by its manufacturer.
I used Shure cartridges for 40 years but I gave up on them after major frustrations with aftermarket styli. They change the sound of the cartridge in ways that made my ears hurt. IMO a $75 Grado Black2 beats a Shure V15III with an SAS stylus.
And yes, I've used them both. The Shure is long gone, but the Grado is playing records right now.
You ask the online retailers who supplies these styli, they get as coy as Bugs Bunny when he dressed like a woman.
Bugger a stylus for an AT, Grado, or Ortofon, you can buy a brand new replacement that's exactly like the one you broke. The cartridge will sound the same, you'll have a big smile on your face.

 

[MCM_Fan]

The VL stylus is a hyper elliptical, the Swiss stylus is a regular elliptical and it isn't the same size as the OE Shure elliptical. The diamond is not cut to the same dimensions and you will hear the difference.
IMO, the old Shure isn't worth saving. It wasn't one of Shure's best efforts (I bought one when they first came out and was mightily disappointed. It sounded dead compared to the far superior V15III). Move on; spend the money on a current production cartridge supported by its manufacturer.
I used Shure cartridges for 40 years but I gave up on them after major frustrations with aftermarket styli. They change the sound of the cartridge in ways that made my ears hurt. IMO a $75 Grado Black2 beats a Shure V15III with an SAS stylus.
And yes, I've used them both. The Shure is long gone, but the Grado is playing records right now.
You ask the online retailers who supplies these styli, they get as coy as Bugs Bunny when he dressed like a woman.
Bugger a stylus for an AT, Grado, or Ortofon, you can buy a brand new replacement that's exactly like the one you broke. The cartridge will sound the same, you'll have a big smile on your face.

Interesting perspective. One of my favorite carts is a Grado, but even it is vintage (A Grado G2+ with original Twin Tip stylus). Other than the Shures (V15 Types V and V) all my other vintage carts are running original styli. I could have never afforded this level of quality at new prices (things like a Signet TK10ML that I got for free). My options as these original styli wear out is to either get them retipped or replace them with something new. Thankfully, I haven't reached that inflection point yet, but it is coming.

Perhaps there is a Grado Blue 3 and an AT VM540 or a VM95ML in my future, but for now, I very much enjoy my vintage carts. Other than basic, entry level products, the only current production cart I've had was a Nagaoka MP-200. It's a very lovely cart, but overall I prefer the Grado G2+ and Signet TK10ML, probably due to the much finer stylus profiles (the MP-200 uses a 0.4 x 0.7 stone). Of course, the Nagaoka has the benefit of readily available genuine replacement styli. So, I may revisit that one in the future as well.

 

[olddude55]

Interesting perspective. One of my favorite carts is a Grado, but even it is vintage (A Grado G2+ with original Twin Tip stylus). Other than the Shures (V15 Types V and V) all my other vintage carts are running original styli. I could have never afforded this level of quality at new prices (things like a Signet TK10ML that I got for free). My options as these original styli wear out is to either get them retipped or replace them with something new. Thankfully, I haven't reached that inflection point yet, but it is coming.

Perhaps there is a Grado Blue 3 and an AT VM540 or a VM95ML in my future, but for now, I very much enjoy my vintage carts. Other than basic, entry level products, the only current production cart I've had was a Nagaoka MP-200. It's a very lovely cart, but overall I prefer the Grado G2+ and Signet TK10ML, probably due to the much finer stylus profiles (the MP-200 uses a 0.4 x 0.7 stone). Of course, the Nagaoka has the benefit of readily available genuine replacement styli. So, I may revisit that one in the future as well.

I've got a lot of vintage carts too, but I bought them knowing that once the styli were shot, the cart was done. Weird vintage carts like Micro Acoustics, and Glanz. They sound great but I'm not sure buying them was a very good idea. They can be retipped but I'm not all that het up about retipping either.
Got an A&R Cambridge E77, but I can still get new production styli for that cart from Garrott Brothers.
I'd rather just use something that has factory support. Even the vintage Grados, you can still buy replacement styli for them.

 

[MCM_Fan]

I've got a lot of vintage carts too, but I bought them knowing that once the styli were shot, the cart was done. Weird vintage carts like Micro Acoustics, and Glanz. They sound great but I'm not sure buying them was a very good idea. They can be retipped but I'm not all that het up about retipping either.
Got an A&R Cambridge E77, but I can still get new production styli for that cart from Garrott Brothers.
I'd rather just use something that has factory support. Even the vintage Grados, you can still buy replacement styli for them.

The thing is, I didn't actually "buy" any of my vintage carts. Most came on tables I bought, usually at Goodwill, usually for less than $25. In most cases, I refurbed the tables, put a new AT3600L cart on them, sold them on and kept the vintage carts. The Grado G2+ came on an HK T60 that I bought off craigslist. The table had been serviced by a local dealer less than a year before I got it and I paid less for the table than what the cart is worth. As I said, very opportunistic.

I have enjoyed "rolling" vintage cartridges from Shure, Signet, Grado, Empire, Pickering, Sonus, AT, etc. In some cases, I was able to snap up genuine NOS styli on eBay or from Gary at the VOM. But, I know eventually this fun will end as the supply of genuine replacement styli run out. I'm preparing to cross that bridge when I come to it. In the mean time, I'll keep enjoying what I have. Having so many lets me "share the wear" by frequently swapping carts (I have 5 headshells for my HK T60, all with vintage high compliance carts mounted and ready to roll).

 

[olddude55]

The thing is, I didn't actually "buy" any of my vintage carts. Most came on tables I bought, usually at Goodwill, usually for less than $25. In most cases, I refurbed the tables, put a new AT3600L cart on them, sold them on and kept the vintage carts. The Grado G2+ came on an HK T60 that I bought off craigslist. The table had been serviced by a local dealer less than a year before I got it and I paid less for the table than what the cart is worth. As I said, very opportunistic.

I have enjoyed "rolling" vintage cartridges from Shure, Signet, Grado, Empire, Pickering, Sonus, AT, etc. In some cases, I was able to snap up genuine NOS styli on eBay or from Gary at the VOM. But, I know eventually this fun will end as the supply of genuine replacement styli run out. I'm preparing to cross that bridge when I come to it. In the mean time, I'll keep enjoying what I have. Having so many lets me "share the wear" by frequently swapping carts (I have 5 headshells for my HK T60, all with vintage high compliance carts mounted and ready to roll).

I do a lot of cartridge rolling also, for the same reasons (spreading out the wear, etc.).
Got a lot of my cartridges for free, or the came in trade for other gear. Bought the Glanz and the Micro-Acoustics carts though.
It's too bad about Shure. And it's too bad that the aftermarket can't or won't supply replacement styli with the right shape.

 

[motrctyman]

I very recently found myself in possession of a V15 Type IV. It came on a turntable I purchased. It came with a Pfansthiel VN35E stylus that had been installed by a local dealer. I suspect the couple I purchased it from told the dealer to install the cheapest stylus that would fit as they planned to sell the turntable.

Personally, I think this cartridge deserves better. First question, what is the difference between the Pfansthiel VN35E and VN45E (other than the label)? VOM sells both. Both are listed as Pfansthiel Swiss, 0.3 x 0.7 mil elliptical. The tracking force range for the VN35E is listed as 1.0 - 1.25g and for the VN45E it's 1.0 - 1.5g. The difference of note is the VN45E sells for > 2x as much as the VN35E. Even the VOM sates that the VN35E is compatible with tje V15 Type IV cartridge. Is the VN45E really a better stylus, or is it just the same stylus with a different label for twice the price?

Second question: with the most recent price increase, the VividLine for the V15 Type IV is now within $40 of the price of the SAS from various eBay sellers. Is it not worth the $40 difference to move up to the boron cantilever and finer profile stone? Is the VividLine really THAT good? Or is the SAS not all that spectacular in spite of the more advanced construction? Or are the eBay SAS sellers not legit? When the VividLine was selling for 80 bucks an the SAS north of 200, the Vividline seemed like a great bargain. At the current 40 buck difference, I'm wondering if that's still true.

The VN35e doesn't come with a stabilizer brush. VN45e does. That makes a difference on a heavier tonearm like found on my Pioneer PL-540. I do have a V15 Type III that I bought a Bliss stylus for and it seems to track "ok" but was not an improvement over the Type IV.

When I bought the vividline, it was on a "christmas" sale iirc. I think I paid about $100 for it. To me, it is totally worth it. Plus, I am not interested in hyper-sensitive cantilevers with non-metal construction. I have three kids under 11 who share the upstairs where my listening room is. Because of that, I have not tried any of the SAS/B/S other than a friend who brought one over. In a very brief listening session, I didn't think the Boron cantilever was all that much more special than the VividLine but it did have a bit different sound. A bit brighter. If one is more prone to liking the AT sound, my guess is one would like the SAS offerings better. Not my cup of tea.

 

[johnjhazel]

The Swiss VN45E's do not have the brush.

 

[motrctyman]

The Swiss VN45E's do not have the brush.

That is weird, I wonder which one I got then? I ordered one about a year ago from VOM (and iirc, you advised me on which one to get). It definitely has a brush, black dot, etc....

 

[johnjhazel]

That is weird, I wonder which one I got then? I ordered one about a year ago from VOM (and iirc, you advised me on which one to get). It definitely has a brush, black dot, etc....

Back then, the Swiss had brushes. And you may have bought the EVG/Japan.

 

[MCM_Fan]

The VN35e doesn't come with a stabilizer brush. VN45e does. That makes a difference on a heavier tonearm like found on my Pioneer PL-540. I do have a V15 Type III that I bought a Bliss stylus for and it seems to track "ok" but was not an improvement over the Type IV.

When I bought the vividline, it was on a "christmas" sale iirc. I think I paid about $100 for it. To me, it is totally worth it. Plus, I am not interested in hyper-sensitive cantilevers with non-metal construction. I have three kids under 11 who share the upstairs where my listening room is. Because of that, I have not tried any of the SAS/B/S other than a friend who brought one over. In a very brief listening session, I didn't think the Boron cantilever was all that much more special than the VividLine but it did have a bit different sound. A bit brighter. If one is more prone to liking the AT sound, my guess is one would like the SAS offerings better. Not my cup of tea.

With the AT cartridges, the "bright and brittle" sound often sited is a result of improper loading. AT's published specs indicate a capacitive load in the 100 - 200pf range. Usually, about half of that is taken up by the tonearm wires and interconnect cables (or, if not using phono specific low capacitance interconnect cables, the cables alone can exceed the total recommended capacitive load). Most vintage receivers or integrated amps have an input capacitance in the 220 to 330pf range for their built in phono stage, which when combined with the tonearm and interconnect capacitance can easily be in excess of 2x the manufacturer's recommendation.

The vintage Shures were made knowing that they would most likely be used with phono stages in the 220 - 330pf range, and were designed to perform their best with a total capacitive load (including tonearm wires and interconnects cables) in the 400 - 500pf range. This is one reason vintage Shure carts with original styli sound so darn right when used with vintage gear. They were literally made for each other.

Ironically, I have read that using the JICO SAS styli in a V15 Type IV or V, you actually need to INCREASE the total capacitance (especially for the V15 Type V) for a flat frequency response. This is due to the two piece cantilever that results in two different resonance peaks in the high frequency range. Increasing the capacitance will push both resonances out past 20KHz and result in a flat frequency response within the audible range.

Point to all this being that the sound of the SAS styli in a vintage Shure cart will be highly system dependent. Which helps explain why some people really like them and others don't.

 

[SterlingOne]

With the AT cartridges, the "bright and brittle" sound often sited is a result of improper loading. AT's published specs indicate a capacitive load in the 100 - 200pf range. Usually, about half of that is taken up by the tonearm wires and interconnect cables (or, if not using phono specific low capacitance interconnect cables, the cables alone can exceed the total recommended capacitive load). Most vintage receivers or integrated amps have an input capacitance in the 220 to 330pf range for their built in phono stage, which when combined with the tonearm and interconnect capacitance can easily be in excess of 2x the manufacturer's recommendation.

The vintage Shures were made knowing that they would most likely be used with phono stages in the 220 - 330pf range, and were designed to perform their best with a total capacitive load (including tonearm wires and interconnects cables) in the 400 - 500pf range. This is one reason vintage Shure carts with original styli sound so darn right when used with vintage gear. They were literally made for each other.

Ironically, I have read that using the JICO SAS styli in a V15 Type IV or V, you actually need to INCREASE the total capacitance (especially for the V15 Type V) for a flat frequency response. This is due to the two piece cantilever that results in two different resonance peaks in the high frequency range. Increasing the capacitance will push both resonances out past 20KHz and result in a flat frequency response within the audible range.

Point to all this being that the sound of the SAS styli in a vintage Shure cart will be highly system dependent. Which helps explain why some people really like them and others don't.

I have 2 V15V-MR's one with OEM stylus the other has an SAS stylus on Boron coated cantilever. I've enjoyed both in listening exercises where carts have been attached to my Technics SL-1210GR connected to the phono preamp of my 20 year old Sony TA-E9000ES Pre-Pro. I have a subwoofer in this system and I get the impression that all components play well together for a satisfactory result. Interestingly enough, the SAS sound is indistinguishable from the Shure OEM's tone. Being satisfied with it all, I have had no inclination to buy any more cartridges on speculation that I might prefer one over what I now have. At any rate, if I had no cartridges at hand and was starting from scratch I'd likely purchase an audio-technica MM model, since user reviews are favorable and their carts are relatively inexpensive for the latest technology.

 

[motrctyman]

With the AT cartridges, the "bright and brittle" sound often sited is a result of improper loading. AT's published specs indicate a capacitive load in the 100 - 200pf range. Usually, about half of that is taken up by the tonearm wires and interconnect cables (or, if not using phono specific low capacitance interconnect cables, the cables alone can exceed the total recommended capacitive load). Most vintage receivers or integrated amps have an input capacitance in the 220 to 330pf range for their built in phono stage, which when combined with the tonearm and interconnect capacitance can easily be in excess of 2x the manufacturer's recommendation.

The vintage Shures were made knowing that they would most likely be used with phono stages in the 220 - 330pf range, and were designed to perform their best with a total capacitive load (including tonearm wires and interconnects cables) in the 400 - 500pf range. This is one reason vintage Shure carts with original styli sound so darn right when used with vintage gear. They were literally made for each other.

Ironically, I have read that using the JICO SAS styli in a V15 Type IV or V, you actually need to INCREASE the total capacitance (especially for the V15 Type V) for a flat frequency response. This is due to the two piece cantilever that results in two different resonance peaks in the high frequency range. Increasing the capacitance will push both resonances out past 20KHz and result in a flat frequency response within the audible range.

Point to all this being that the sound of the SAS styli in a vintage Shure cart will be highly system dependent. Which helps explain why some people really like them and others don't.

I can absolutely believe that, but also believe they have an inherent brighter sound than Shure, Ortofon, Pickering/Stanton, Etc... I do have an AT13Ea that I occasionally will listen to, but typically not very long. I had an AR XA that I had replaced the tonearm wiring in and also built and measured some Mogami cables for. Total capacitance from cartridge to phon pre was right at about 140pF. I have played it through modern SS phono pre's, vintage pre's (PAS 3X) and a home-brew op amp design. Still sounds a bit brighter than my personal tastes, but I tend to like a more mellow sound. I will say, I have not tried a more modern higher-end AT cart (nothing over the $150 range) so I am probably not comparing apples to apples either. I have been tempted to order a VN540ML to try out, so maybe it is time I give it a go and see what it is or isn't that I have been missing...