Shure VE20 Cartridge Questions

[racfan9]

Good Evening All,

This afternoon I picked up a Yamaha TT and it's equipped with this Shure VE20 cartridge with a 8x stylus. I've never heard of the VE20 so was wondering if it's worth keeping. And also when did this cartridge come out.

Thanks,
racfan9

 

[GP49]

Shure VE20. Takes NDC-EJ stylus, no longer available from Shure.
Elliptical stylus, 0.4x 0.7 mils. Tracking weight 1 1/2 to 3 grams.

Upgradeable with NDC-ED stylus (elliptical, 0.2 x 0.7 mil, tracking weight 3/4 to 1 1/2 grams)
Upgradeable with NDC-HE stylus (hyperelliptical, tracking weight 3/4 to 1 1/2 grams)

Neither one of those is available from Shure, either. So you are stuck with third-party imitation styli.

 

[wualta]

It's from a line of private-label cartridges Shure called "Designer Series" and the guts are basically M95. The bodies were given many different names, none of which mean anything to us today. Actually there's only one body and the stylus determines the model.

As GP49, the faster typist, pointed out, the styli all have the prefix NDC. There were NDC-ED and -EJ ellipticals and an NDC-HE Hyperelliptical, so for dates I'd guess no older than 1977, probably closer to 1980.

The Pfanstiehl index for these styli is 774-Dxx. For example, the Hyperelliptical would be 774-DHE. The 8X is a Radio Shack R8X stylus made by Shure.

It's worth keeping if you can find a stylus to fit it. There are several you can make fit if you're willing to carve a little plastic.

 

[marcmorin]

This will fit also. .2 X .7 OEM

no affiliation

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Realistic-S...rd_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item19df9fc839

 

[wualta]

And believe it or not, JICO makes a boron-cantilever micro-ridge-diamond stylus for this cartridge, if you want to spend the money. To the inevitable question "is the resultant sound worth the money?", I say yes, especially given the difficulty of finding the original Shure styli and their prices when you do.

 

[racfan9]

Wualta,

Where does the 8x stylus stack up against the different stylus you mentioned? The 8x that's on it looks to be in very good condition but I haven't got to test it yet, hopefully I can do that tonight.

Racfan9

 

[wualta]

You really can't tell by visual inspection; you either need the specialized microscope mentioned in the sticky or you have to have a "torture" LP with tracks that contain strong sibilants (or other high-level high-frequency sounds) that will let you easily separate the sheep from the goats.

The R8X was of course made by Shure. It's equivalent to an NDC-ED, a nude-mount 2x7 elliptical that tracks at 0.75 to 1.5g (start it at 1.25g). That's according to the big 2004 discontinued-cartridge chart published by Shure.

I don't have Shure-published specs for the NDC styli, but since a Hyperelliptical was available, I'm guessing the ED stylus was contemporary with, and therefore close in performance to, the N97ED, which was very good indeed. UPDATE: GrampaDave in the next post correctly points out that in terms of trackability they're more like N95EDs, not quite up to the N97ED. But the overall sound quality would be the same, since they're both Shure styli trying for flat response in what are essentially identical bodies.

None of this means you're guaranteed to like the sound, but it should be typical "V-bottom" Shure: flat/neutral, maybe a tad rolled off above 15 kHz, with punchy, lively sound overall and as good a bottom end as you're likely to hear.

So I hope the stylus is in good shape.
.

 

[GrampaDave]

I did a bunch of trackability research a while ago. I can't remember the sources, but when the smoke cleared away I wrote myself a note that for NDC, one should assume N95 trackabilities, not N97. So, just a touch better than the N91ED.

N97 was a jump forward, but the big leap was the V15 IV and V, and the ML140. They are the all-time champs.

Dave

 

[wualta]

Don't forget the hated V15 RS, aka VST III and V15 Pro S. Might as well throw in the V15VxMR too.

It's kind of surprising to note the many fans of the 1972 M91ED still using it, and the fact that Shure was still selling versions of the M75ED well into the '80s.

I expect racfan ran screaming to his local dealer and bought an Ortofon 2M Red months ago.

 

[GrampaDave]

The V15RS/VSTIII are a mystery. (I haven't seen anything re Pro S and can't comment.) I've only found trackability data for 400Hz and 10kHz.

1.25g

400 10k
26 56

So at 400Hz it's only fair - between an M91E and an M91ED - but at 10kHz it's in V15IV/ML140 territory. I think they pulled an N24H, stiff suspension to beef up HF trackability at the expense of LF. I can't figure out why, if the cantilever was the same Be masterpiece as the V15V. It's troubling. Wish I had one to look at.

Claimed trackability for the V15Vx is identical to V15V.

It does seem a little quiet in here.

Dave

 

[marcmorin]

Don't forget the hated V15-RS, aka VST-III and V15 Pro S. Might as well throw in the V15VxMR too.

It's kind of surprising to note the many fans of the 1972 M91ED still using it, and the fact that Shure was still selling versions of the M75ED well into the '80s.

I expect racfan ran screaming to his local dealer and bought an Ortofon 2M Red months ago.

Just opened and played a NOS M75 type 2 a few weeks ago. Although listed as the "encore" version of it. Still a fine sounding cart in a rock-n-roll sense.
Lots of fun. I can see why people still like the 75/91 line of carts.

 

[wualta]

Since I've been reminded of it and LPGear still stocks it as of this writing, in order to finally give a useful answer to the OP even though it's too late, I'm compelled to say that the best reasonably-priced replacement stylus for the NDC cartridges that I've seen is the original Shure Ne95ED.

 

[marcmorin]

Since I've been reminded of it and LPGear still stocks it as of this writing, in order to finally give a useful answer to the OP even though it's too late, I'm compelled to say that the best reasonably-priced replacement stylus for the NDC cartridges that I've found is the original Shure Ne95ED: http://www.lpgear.com/product/SHSME095ED.html $60 + ship.

Yep, I have one of those too. Nice stylus. I have it on my RS R47XT

not sure why everybody thinks the RS numbered Shure carts have cooties.
But I'm glad they do, because one can usually pick up a good body for 1/3 the price if it doesn't say RS on it someplace

 

[dlaloum]

The V15RS is effectively a V15VxHE - it does have the Be cantilever, but was being sold via Radio Shack during the V15VMR era.

The body is electrically identical to the V15Vx body..... my guess is that the laminated cores were more expensive, so under pressure from digital, they re-purposed and renamed the V15rs into tho V15VxMR .... the only improvement being the change from HE tip to MR.

I have an RS waiting in its box.....

 

[Balifly]

The V15RS is effectively a V15VxHE - it does have the Be cantilever, but was being sold via Radio Shack during the V15VMR era.

The body is electrically identical to the V15Vx body..... my guess is that the laminated cores were more expensive, so under pressure from digital, they re-purposed and renamed the V15rs into tho V15VxMR .... the only improvement being the change from HE tip to MR.

I have an RS waiting in its box.....

My RS came with no stylus.

It is singing beautifully with a SAS stylus now.

 

[wualta]

The V15RS/VSTIII are a mystery. [At 400Hz trackability is 26 cm/sec and at 10kHz it's 56 cm/sec, all at 1.25g VTF.]

So at 400Hz [the V15-RS is] only fair - between an M91E and an M91ED - but at 10kHz it's in V15IV/ML140 territory. I think they pulled an N24H, stiff suspension to beef up HF trackability at the expense of LF. I can't figure out why, if the cantilever was the same Be masterpiece as the V15V. It's troubling. ... Claimed trackability for the V15Vx is identical to V15V.

Off topic but fun topic:

As GDave pointed out, the V15VxMR, though we could say it was based on the V15-RS body and stylus, had a stylus that was more fully developed (though with a twist), which was reflected in its much higher price and better specs. Its stylus is indeed much closer to the predecessor V15VMR's than the V15-RS's. Its problem is that it's stuck in a body with roughly 30% higher inductance and of lesser linearity in the treble than the V15V, which accounts for at least some of the "audiophile" response curve (so "beloved" in the M97xE!). The xMR stylus wants to go in a lower-inductance body-- ideally in a laminated V15V body-- but Shure made that impossible.

As for the lower tracking performance of the RS, we can see that the RS was not equivalent to the original 1982 V15V-HE in all respects-- the Be foil cantilever was retained and so was the V's original HE stylus, but the damping system was apparently simplified; the RS's tracking behavior hints that its design resembles earlier non-V15 damping systems like, say, the N97HE's. It's also less prone to age hardening than its big brothers, hinting at a different rubber formulation.

The RS sold for so much less than the V15VMR when it was on sale for $40 at Radio Shack (veteran Shackers considered the sale price the "real" price), its performance/price ratio was very high. It may not have tracked quite like the V, but it sounded like the V, and matched well with medium-mass arms. Think of it as a latter-day M97HE playing second-best to a latter-day V15 Type IV and priced (on sale) accordingly.
Let's put it this way: at high frequencies, where it counts, it handily out-tracked any Shure aluminum-cantilever cartridge, including the V15III, to which it is often erroneously (infamously?) compared, and the V15IV.

Here's the spec sheet for the V15 IV stylus (as used in the V15 LT) operated at 1.25g, for direct comparison to the V15 RS specs posted above:

 

[wualta]

My RS came with no stylus. It is singing beautifully with a SAS stylus now.

That's one excellent (if pricey) substitution. Another is the N97xE stylus, which starts to come alive in the lower-inductance body, at least in my system, with no urgent need to tweak-- although flatter response is reachable via tweak if that's your pleasure.

 

[Balifly]

The purchase was made prior to the last price increase! :yes:

 

[wualta]

Good on you, mate! Not pricey for you, but for the rest of us who are not quite as quick on the uptake... Still worth the money, in my eyes, and probably cheaper than a NOS VNSE3HE stylus. I have the SAS in question myself and it works in the M97xE, the later p-mounts, the RS, the xMR...

...and it would work in the OP's VE20 if he popped its elaborate plastic mount off the top of the metal body and fabricated or stole one of the caps from one of the Era V v-bottom cartridges and glued that on instead.