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Sibilance a problem with record?

Marshwiggle

Marshwiggle

Member
Hi all. I'm still fairly new to the record scene, and I buy nearly all of mine used, so usually when I hear something "off", I assume it might be the record's fault.

Anyway, I have a couple of new pressings, and one of them has some significant (to me) sibilance at the loud "S" sounds, but on other new records I haven't noticed much. I have the same album on CD, so I know the sibilance isn't a problem with the recording itself. Is this likely to be a problem with the record itself, or should I start looking at the rest of my setup?

For reference, I have a stock Debut iii, set to specs, and I'm not real excited about the idea of tweaking things alignment, etc., unless I need to.:sigh:

Thanks for any help, and if there's some more info that could help, please ask...
 
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Hey there, thanks for the help.

The specs call for 17.5 VTF, and I just compared a song a few times between 17.5 and 20*. (I also used the CD as reference.) I think increasing to 20 definitely lessened the sibilance. I wouldn't say it's gone, but it improved quite a bit so that I only hear it on the worst of the "S" sounds instead of every one, and even those spots are less noticeable.

So how much is it OK to play with the VTF? Should I try higher? Also, should I be adjusting the anti-skate to compensate for a new VTF?

Thanks again...

*(Edit: I got my decimals wrong in my head. The actual numbers I was using was 1.75 and 2.0. Sorry for the confusion)
 
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I think Sibilance could be due to a number of things

Taming it to a reasonable level is problematic

Quite right to check against cd's when you can - I've chased my tail there only to find the cd had it as well & I find some of the worst culprits are digital recordings - both on FM & recordings. Outside of your control.

The cause can be the alignment VTF VTA azimuth Antiskate / the stylus profile/ stylus type, Stylus condition, the record itself. (And all combined)

I wish there was a straight easy answer but haven't yet found it.

Best to make a recording via Audacity as it stands, then make another after each adjustment so that way you have a permanent reference & can compare.

If you have an old worn stylus I'd start with a new one
 
Marsh,
If I just spent $40,000 on a Walker Proscenium Turntable, and Lloyd Walker himself drove out, with the 350 lbs of turntable (which he does, when you hand the man $40K), I wouldn't trust the set-up, even by Lloyd himself. At least not a week later after Lloyd set it up. It may be right the day of set-up, but not a week, or so later, after things loosen up, and settle in-break in.

You have to learn set up firstly. If not, you will always be lost in the world of analog.

We will try to help you, but you need to tell us more, a lot more. Like what Cartridge is this, who aligned it? What alignment geometry was used? What Scale was used to determine Vertical Tracking Force? Is the Scale known to be accurate? Is the Stylus clean? What are you using to clean the Stylus with? This is just a start.

Give us some more info, and we'll try helping. Mark
 
Thanks for all the input guys. The stylus should be pretty clean. I do the ME thing as well as use a stylus cleaner brush. I don't use the fluid, I think I read somewhere that alcohol and the Ortofon stylus sometimes don't get along?

Anyway, it's a stock Project Debut iii with a factory installed Ortofon OM 5E. I set up the table out of the box to the standard specs. Anything beyond that I unfortunately can't tell you. I checked the alignment using the little cardboard two-point protractor that came with the table, and things looked about right to me.

I did find that on the Ortofon site it claims a tracking force range of 1.5 - 2.0, with a recommendation of 1.75. (Sorry, in my last post I misplaced my decimals.) I think I'm going to leave it at 20.0 since it seems to have improved things, at least for this record. As far as accuracy of VTF, I'm don't have a scale, I'm just going off the reading on the counterweight. Are these often inaccurate?

Again, thanks for the help.
 
I think you will need to accept to some degree the limitations of the 5E stylus. Bumping the VTF up to 2.0g is acceptable if it sounds good. Give it some time to break in before you critically judge. You might want to consider a force gauge of some sort, to confirm your VTF more accurately than counterweight markings can. At 1.75g, the counterweight markings on my Pro-Ject arm are off by about 0.1g.

Examples:

4287743351_61629daf27_m.jpg
4027773464_d3477a9a87_m.jpg
 
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G'day mate, sibilance can be due to many factors, but the number one possibility is incorrect overhang.

If you have access to a good two point overhang protractor 'calibrated' to whatever alignment one prefers, here is a general guide. http://www.mds975.co.uk/Content/vinyl07.html Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
I too am running the 5e. I've run into some of the same problems, though I've eventually settled with a weight of about 1.6. Seems to be a little less inner-groove distortion that way. I'm waiting for my "Quest 20" digitrac stili to come in. Hoping that cures some of my ills.

That being said, the 5e is an amazing bang for your buck.

Catman knows what he's talking about, in my experience. Check out his link.
 
Thanks guys. I'll try running with increased tracking force for a while, and see how that works out for me. I'm also going to check into the overhang issue.

And if it ends up being a limitation on the OM5e, are there any opinions on getting an step-up stylus for this cartridge vs going all-in for a new cartridge? (Keep in mind I'm happy with the sound overall, I'm just trying to minimize the sibilance issue.)
 
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Marshwiggle said:
Hey there, thanks for the help.

The specs call for 17.5 VTF, and I just compared a song a few times between 17.5 VTF and 20 VTF. (I also used the CD as reference.) I think increasing to 20 definitely lessened the sibilance. I wouldn't say it's gone, but it improved quite a bit so that I only hear it on the worst of the "S" sounds instead of every one, and even those spots are less noticeable.

So how much is it OK to play with the VTF? Should I try higher? Also, should I be adjusting the anti-skate to compensate for a new VTF?

Thanks again...
Click to expand...

I think I am missing something here, are you tracking your cartridge at 17.5g? I would worry that you are straightening out the grooves at that force.

Sibilance is sometimes the results of a pressing. I bought a Sundazed LP that was returned and the replacement returned because the pressing had sibilance. The original pressing of the LP, which I also own, didn't have the problem.

Minor adjustments on the anti-skate might help but don't go too far.

Repeatedly mistracking an LP will damage it permanently.
 
Grainger49 said:
I think I am missing something here, are you tracking your cartridge at 17.5g?
Click to expand...
Good that you caught that, Grainger. There is obviously a misplaced decimal somewhere. That cart's recommended tracking force is 1.75 grams.
Hopefully Marshwiggle can confirm what he actually has it set at. (I doubt you could get a Project table to track that close to an ounce without strapping a roll of pennies on the arm.

Bob_in_OKC said:
I think you will need to accept to some degree the limitations of the 5E stylus.
Click to expand...
QTF. I wouldn't expect clear, clean music from a $50 cartridge. At least from my own experience with other carts in that price range.
 
Marshwiggle said:
Thanks guys. I'll try running with increased tracking force for a while, and see how that works out for me. I'm also going to check into the overhang issue.

And if it ends up being a limitation on the OM5e, are there any opinions on getting an step-up stylus for this cartridge vs going all-in for a new cartridge? (Keep in mind I'm happy with the sound overall, I'm just trying to minimize the sibilance issue.)
Click to expand...

The 5E stylus can be replaced by the 10, 20, 30, 40 and their generic equivalents. If I were in your position, I'd look at the 20...if not now, eventually. They're all available from many sources, like this one.

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=LG&Category_Code=OS1



Decimal point issue:

On the topic of the 10x multiple tracking force...that's the unit "mN" (thousandths of Newtons), which I have seen in use by Ortofon before. They show that number at the Needle Doctor pages for the Ortofon styli.
 
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Thanks for the feedback guys. And sorry for the decimal point issue- I edited that post so I hopefully don't confuse anyone else...

Anyway, things seem better than they were. Alignment seems to be just about perfect from what I can tell with a protractor. I'm planning to check out gauges, and maybe I'll get one. (I have another older TT that could use a check.) Also, I'll probably look into an improved replacement stylus at some point in the not too distant future.

Thanks for the help. Any more suggestions are welcome, but I think I'm read to enjoy some music.:thmbsp:
 
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