Sibilance

[arcamguy1]

Hi group,
I'm having trouble dialing-in my new turntable. I'm getting sibilance on certain tracks.

My turntable is a new Music Hall MMF 7.3; my cartridge is a Goldring Elite MC; I'm running it through a Musical Surroundings Nova II phono preamp, although the problem also exists when I run the TT through the phono section of my Yamaha C-70.

What would be the likely culprits to check?
Is it VTF? I have the cartridge set to the recommended force.
Is it VTA? The tonearm (Project 9cc) appears level to the playing surface.
Is it azimuth?

The turntable has, maybe, 20 hours of playing time. My dealer told me this could be a case of letting the cartridge break-in.

What do you guys think?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[AudioJag]

What is your Anti-skate set at......

 

[AudioJag]

Also ... what is the tracking force you have the arm set at.... not what is recommended ... actual

 

[dcmfan]

Sibilance is caused by the stylus losing contact with the groove wall. Cartridge alignment would be the first thing to check. If that is spot on (not just "close enough"), then you may have success by adding tracking force, but not above the maximum recommended by the manufacturer.

Also, try several records to rule out groove damage, or distortion that may be embedded in the recording.

 

[arcamguy1]

AudioJag, the anti-skate, on this tonearm (Project 9cc) , is set to the notch closest to the cartridge; the tracking force is 1.7 grams - which is actual.
dcmfan-the cartridge was installed by my dealer (Needle Doctor) and checked by my guy here....says it's all good.

 

[dcmfan]

dcmfan-the cartridge was installed by my dealer (Needle Doctor) and checked by my guy here....says it's all good.

Then I'd try a little more force and several records to see if it persists. Another factor might be preamp loading with your MC cart. The Nova ii has tons of settings. 100 ohm is Goldrings recommendation, but feel free to try settings below 100 and see if it tames the sibilance.

Sibilance is a maddening thing but it can be tamed. Good luck!

 

[AudioJag]

Not familiar with the arm ... I don't know how much anti-skate that represents.... I've found on my tables and arms that the best anti-skate amount is about 1/2 the VTF. I use 1.6g tracking force on all of the tts.... ( sometimes you get some sibilants due to the recording itself. I have 3 different pressings of the Brazil 66 Equinox and they all have the same sibilants .... annoys me but can't get rid of it.

What is the "Morrow" equipment you are using..... my family name is Morrow...

 

[AudioJag]

I looked up the tonearms anti-skate settings in the manual.... of course they are in tech speak which doesn't compute to normal .... so you may want to try moving the loop on the antiskate to the second position from the tonearm.... as well as what dcmfan says to check. Looks like from the cartridge specs you can go up to 2g ...

Specifications:

• Output: 0.5mV

• Frequency Response: 20~30,000Hz

• Load Impedance: 100 ohms

• Channel Separation: 25dB

• Channel Sensitivity Difference: 1dB or less

• Tracking Tip: Gyger I / vdH 1

• Compliance: 18mm/N

• Tracking Force: 1.5 - 2g

• Weight: 5.7g

 

[arcamguy1]

AudioJag, the Morrow is the tonearm cable, which is a new PH6. I will try adjusting the anti-skate (which I wish were more precise on this tonearm), plus adding some force to the VTF. If it persists, I will play with the loading, although this problem also exists when I just use the phono section of my restored C-70.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions! Keep them coming. Really appreciate it.
Needle Doctor told me this could also be cartridge break-in. Does that make sense to you guys?
Jeff

 

[AudioJag]

Does that make sense........ not to me... used to sell all this great stuff in the 60's & 70's ... never ran across this problem ... but... we weren't yet that sofisticated ... that came later. Now I try to get all the settings on my SME Series III as close to perfect as possible. The hardest one to do no matter what "they" say... is the anti-skate. As example.... Grado says that their cartridges tend to like very little to no anti-skate... btw: you could also try a different cartridge..... it would not be uncommon for a very expensive cartridge to have manufacturing flaws.... I can suggest also that the best cartridges I've ever owned are the two Soundsmith hand made cartridges I'm using. The other was a Denon 160... no longer made.

 

[Freddymac2]

Break in doesn't cure sibilants, in my experience. Bad or damaged recording will cause this. Do you have any Shure Tracking Test records in good shape. If all settings are correct as two people claim, and it is not the record, then the answer is the Cartridge! I do know that a Line Contact is much more critical to alignment than other types, but I do not have ant experience with Gyger's.

 

[arcamguy1]

Hello all,
I am experimenting with added VTF; nominal on the Goldring Elite is 1.7g; I took it up to 1.8. (its range is 1.5-2.0) I'll also eyeball the tonearm closely tonight to see if I have to adjust the VTA. Just eyeballing it, the tonearm looks parallel to the vinyl surface.

I bought this TT after reading the recommendation in Stereophile. The 7.3 comes with a Project 9cc tonearm; the reviewer recommended, as far as anti-skate, using the 1st notch to tame distortion. What I find weird is that's not what the Project manual recommends. For that down-force, it says put it on notch 2, so I am going to keep it on that setting for awhile.

Most of the distortion/sibiliance comes on tracks closer to the spindle.

I used a test record; the azimuth test seemed to go OK. I checked the alignment with the supplied paper protractor - that checked out OK.

Keep in mind I am a newbie at this. I will be doing more listening tonight.
Journey continues....

 

[Superampman]

Have you attempted to adjust anti-skate on the fly yet? If there's a hold down thumb-screw for the wire loop, you can move it forward/back as you tighten/loosen the screw. I have found that anti-skate is as critical as any other adjustment. VTA/SRA and anti-skate on the fly adjustment is really necessary imo. For just the reason you're complaining about. If they are off, they absolutely can cause sibilance. Every other adjustment can be static without consequence except these two.

Another factor is the default cancellation of anti-skate by the record being off center. Some more than others but unless it is on center, it will be at least cancelled for half rotation and possibly much more depending on how far off center it is. If the tone arm is being jerked back and forth, you may as well just remove the anti-skate because it would probably sound better without it. Every one of my records has a pencil line to direct along what radius to correct it to dead center which I put on it before I even play it the first time. This with adjustment on the fly is night and day difference.

 

[Bugler]

I do believe azimuth gets overlooked a lot as some tonearms don't easily allow its adjustment. It's especially critical with line contact stylii. A mirror is the best way to adjust azimuth. I like to use a mirrored alignment protractor. What you're describing is commonly referred to as inner grove distortion (IDG) as it becomes more pronounced as the stylus gets closer to the spindle. As others mentioned, some experimentation with VTA, VTF, alignment, antiskate and azimuth are all important for maximum performance. It's time consuming but well worth it.

 

[Audiofreak71]

I do believe azimuth gets overlooked a lot as some tonearms don't easily allow its adjustment. It's especial critical with line contact stylii. A mirror is the best way to adjust azimuth. I like to use a mirrored alignment protractor. What you're describing is commonly referred to as inner grove distortion (IDG) as it becomes more pronounced as the stylus gets closer to the spindle. As others mentioned, some experimentation with VTA, VTF, alignment, antiskate and azimuth are all important for maximum performance. It's time consuming but well worth it.

Very true ^

 

[Balifly]

Hi group,
I'm having trouble dialing-in my new turntable. I'm getting sibilance on certain tracks.

My turntable is a new Music Hall MMF 7.3; my cartridge is a Goldring Elite MC;
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks.

It is my conjecture that your dealer set up the cartridge for you.

Your cartridge has a very fine and sensitive tip.

Gyger I / vdH 1

Those type of fine tips like the ones in the Denon DL-S1, Ortofon 2M Black are very difficult to set up correctly.

One of my friend had a similar frustrating experience with the Denon.

Since yours is still under warranty, have the dealer work on it until you are satisfied.

 

[arcamguy1]

Have you attempted to adjust anti-skate on the fly yet? If there's a hold down thumb-screw for the wire loop, you can move it forward/back as you tighten/loosen the screw. I have found that anti-skate is as critical as any other adjustment. VTA/SRA and anti-skate on the fly adjustment is really necessary imo. For just the reason you're complaining about. If they are off, they absolutely can cause sibilance. Every other adjustment can be static without consequence except these two.

Another factor is the default cancellation of anti-skate by the record being off center. Some more than others but unless it is on center, it will be at least cancelled for half rotation and possibly much more depending on how far off center it is. If the tone arm is being jerked back and forth, you may as well just remove the anti-skate because it would probably sound better without it. Every one of my records has a pencil line to direct along what radius to correct it to dead center which I put on it before I even play it the first time. This with adjustment on the fly is night and day difference.

Superampman, I have not thought of moving the actual wire loop. I would do that by loosening the screw and moving the wire? I can try it.

I do believe azimuth gets overlooked a lot as some tonearms don't easily allow its adjustment. It's especially critical with line contact stylii. A mirror is the best way to adjust azimuth. I like to use a mirrored alignment protractor. What you're describing is commonly referred to as inner grove distortion (IDG) as it becomes more pronounced as the stylus gets closer to the spindle. As others mentioned, some experimentation with VTA, VTF, alignment, antiskate and azimuth are all important for maximum performance. It's time consuming but well worth it.

Bugler, I have a mirror alignment protractor. How would I use that to set proper azimuth? By sight?

 

[arcamguy1]

It is my conjecture that your dealer set up the cartridge for you.

Your cartridge has a very fine and sensitive tip.

Gyger I / vdH 1

Those type of fine tips like the ones in the Denon DL-S1, Ortofon 2M Black are very difficult to set up correctly.

One of my friend had a similar frustrating experience with the Denon.

Since yours is still under warranty, have the dealer work on it until you are satisfied.

I purchased the TT from Needle Doctor. I can give them a call.
Jeff

 

[Superampman]

Superampman, I have not thought of moving the actual wire loop. I would do that by loosening the screw and moving the wire? I can try it.

Changing the height of the counter-weight by moving the loop changes the force, effectively acting as a fine adjustment. Doing it while listening to music 'tunes' in the sweet spot.



Bugler, I have a mirror alignment protractor. How would I use that to set proper azimuth? By sight?

Yes, by sight. Use a loupe for best result.

 

[Superampman]

Weird. My response appears in your quote.