Simpson users - D cell replacement?

[N8Nagel]

So I wrote to the source, and got this in reply:

You’re correct with the NiMH batteries lowering the voltage enough to cause the problem. I’m guessing that the three ‘AA’ cells are in parallel for replacing the ‘D’ cell. The lithium batteries run at the 1.5 volt level and would work better. Just a note, lithium batteries will hold their voltage until at the end and will suddenly drop. Normally there is very little warning that the battery is going to fail so you may want to keep that in mind and have spares or a ‘D’ cell handy.

Another item I want to mention is that if the unit has had an overload at some time you may want to check the larger 2 Amp Buss fuse by bypassing, jumping, it to test for internal resistance. We have encountered the fuse picking up resistance from being hit by an overload and it will add resistance into the Ohms and mA circuits causing incorrect readings. I hope this information helps. Have a good day.

So on my way home from work I picked up a 4 pack of Energizer Lithium AAs and they're working fine. While digging in my battery box I found that I had four Duracell alkalines in there that I had forgotten about. Why I bothered to keep them I don't know. Must have come with something I bought and I just kept them in case I gave something away with a remote or something like that. Two had an expiration date of 2024. I say had, because one of them was leaking into its little plastic case already. This right here is why I never use the bastards, and why I say that alkalines are trash.



I also checked the fuse to which he was referring, but I expected it to be OK because I'm pretty sure I replaced it (what is it with good meters always having the wrong value fuses in them when you get them used?) and it measured at 0.1-0.2 ohms on a cheap Greenlee meter. (couldn't use the Simpson as that is the fuse that protects the resistance measurement circuit.)

 

[gadget73]

I have a drawer in the shop that has just spare multimeter fuses in it. Even bought some extra of that big goofy fuse Simpsons use.

 

[N8Nagel]

Flukes use those big sand filled fuses too those are the ones that save your butt when you mess up at tube amp voltages

 

[audiodummy]

Discharged/abused alkaline batteries have higher chance of leaking. I've had a few alkalines leak well before their expiration date as well as they were expended. I don't recall ever having a fresh one from blister package leak before ever being in any device though technically it should be possible...

Perhaps something to experiment with is that since it invariably is the negative terminal that leaks, keeping some absorbent material there will wick away some of the electrolyte away from electronics or other metals? I haven't tried this, but might be something worth trying.

 

[Pio1980]

I try to keep cells out of gear that is not frequently used, easier said than done.

 

[N8Nagel]

I try to keep cells out of gear that is not frequently used, easier said than done.

Indeed. I am way too lazy for that, plus, the sheer number of devices that are mine alone that use batteries is staggering.

 

[audiodummy]

Even worse for a lot of my VOMs, they need to be "operationally ready" and needing to remove screws to access the battery compartment is simply not feasible. Actually thinking about it again, I think all of my VOMs, FETVM or not, requires at least one screw to be removed to replace batteries...

I'm glad I have a bench DMM that runs off of either a wall wart or battery (6x"C" and its battery life is pretty miserable, talk about expensive battery swaps and yes I've had to deal with a leak in this too...) As it's a DMM, it constantly draws power when on. Accidentally leaving it on and killing the batteries is a great way to induce electrolyte leaks...

 

[maxhifi]

Never had a Duracell Alkaline D cell go leaky in my 260 in 18 years of moderate to frequent use. If you're really worried, put a sticker on the meter showing the date last changed, and change the batteries once a year. I think it is extremely unlikely that a battery used as infrequently as the low ohms D cell in a 260 will leak after only one year. If you're really really worried, just pull the batteries and use the 260 to measure voltage and current where it works best, and use a DMM to measure resistance.

 

[audiodummy]

Do people actually use the resistance measurements on analog VOMs these days?

I'd almost be willing to bet a lot of the younger folk would be dumbfounded on how to read these nowadays...heh. Not to mention once you do figure out how to read the scale, its accuracy is miserable, maybe 2 significant digits.

BTW, the Heathkit VTVOM I used to have, it also uses disposable battery as in those days it was tough to get a low, regulated voltage at high current for reading Rx1 through Rx1M. It was "C" sized and despite it too being I'd say at least 30 years old, didn't leak, and still worked! It was likewise a steel cased carbon zinc, a Ray-o-vac no less. At least it wasn't an alkaline.

 

[Retrovert]

Never had a Duracell Alkaline D cell go leaky in my 260 in 18 years of moderate to frequent use. If you're really worried, put a sticker on the meter showing the date last changed, and change the batteries once a year. I think it is extremely unlikely that a battery used as infrequently as the low ohms D cell in a 260 will leak after only one year.

Yeah, I once thought that the larger alkalines were more durable. Nuh-uh. I just had a D cell leak all over the five-cell Mag flashlight stored in my car. That was expensive enough failure that I'm going to send it back, along with the C cell Duraleak last year ruined, and demand a replacements for both.

You wanna know how often that flashlight is used? Try almost, not quite nearly never, and I consequently didn't remember to replace the batteries in December. I have a dual AA one on my belt which is commonly used so the batteries are more often checked and replaced.

Next set is going to be NiMH to avoid this failure mode.

 

[whoaru99]

Flukes use those big sand filled fuses too those are the ones that save your butt when you mess up at tube amp voltages

Technically, I think it's not as much the voltage that makes those fuses special and expensive, but the current interrupt characteristic giving a better chance of the meter not turning into a glowing fireball in your hand. I cringe when I read people replacing them with cheapo "will fit" fuses. Fortunately, most uses here on the forum don't involve measurements on circuits where that much current is available.

 

[maxhifi]

Yeah, I once thought that the larger alkalines were more durable. Nuh-uh. I just had a D cell leak all over the five-cell Mag flashlight stored in my car. That was expensive enough failure that I'm going to send it back, along with the C cell Duraleak last year ruined, and demand a replacements for both.

You wanna know how often that flashlight is used? Try almost, not quite nearly never, and I consequently didn't remember to replace the batteries in December. I have a dual AA one on my belt which is commonly used so the batteries are more often checked and replaced.

Next set is going to be NiMH to avoid this failure mode.

I wonder if the temperature cycling of the car helped to provoke leakage. I know the chocolate bars I keep in my car's emergency kit don't seem to last as long as I'd expect them to if they were in my pantry. It would sure be nice if you could buy a premium battery which was guaranteed to not leak.

 

[Retrovert]

I wonder if the temperature cycling of the car helped to provoke leakage. I know the chocolate bars I keep in my car's emergency kit don't seem to last as long as I'd expect them to if they were in my pantry. It would sure be nice if you could buy a premium battery which was guaranteed to not leak.

The car is nearly always garaged, so I don't think it is temperature cycling. The AA and AAA batteries which fail in remotes in my living room are not temperature cycled. Neither are the C and D cells which have failed in my home flashlights. I date all the batteries and try to regularly change once a year, just like the smoke detectors and CO detectors. (Those are AC powered, so the battery only functions for backup in case of power outage, so no need for the twice-a-year change recommended by the fire department.)

As with many products, the incremental cost to produce a better unit would not be significant in the retail channel but demand is low. I have paid more for column fans which will not fail, and the same awful engineering is used, including sleeve bearings instead of ball bearings, no lubrication ports, etc. I just took apart my fancy new fan because one of the motors seized after less than a year. Still under warranty, but clearly designed to fail just out of it. Nothing is wrong with the motor design, per se, it just requires lubrication and lacks a lubrication port. Grrrr! Also had to drill out one of the screws to remove the rotor in order to gain access to the front bearing. Clearly not intended to be cleaned or lubricated. I start sounding like an old man complaining about how modern capitalism is built upon deliberate waste.

Anyway, better seals in the alkalines would cost a fraction of a cent more, and that is too much when multiplied by billions upon billions of batteries.

 

[maxhifi]

The car is nearly always garaged, so I don't think it is temperature cycling. The AA and AAA batteries which fail in remotes in my living room are not temperature cycled. Neither are the C and D cells which have failed in my home flashlights. I date all the batteries and try to regularly change once a year, just like the smoke detectors and CO detectors. (Those are AC powered, so the battery only functions for backup in case of power outage, so no need for the twice-a-year change recommended by the fire department.)

As with many products, the incremental cost to produce a better unit would not be significant in the retail channel but demand is low. I have paid more for column fans which will not fail, and the same awful engineering is used, including sleeve bearings instead of ball bearings, no lubrication ports, etc. I just took apart my fancy new fan because one of the motors seized after less than a year. Still under warranty, but clearly designed to fail just out of it. Nothing is wrong with the motor design, per se, it just requires lubrication and lacks a lubrication port. Grrrr! Also had to drill out one of the screws to remove the rotor in order to gain access to the front bearing. Clearly not intended to be cleaned or lubricated. I start sounding like an old man complaining about how modern capitalism is built upon deliberate waste.

Anyway, better seals in the alkalines would cost a fraction of a cent more, and that is too much when multiplied by billions upon billions of batteries.

Energizer guarantees their expensive batteries against leaks, but not the "normal" ones.

https://www.energizer.ca/about-batteries/battery-leakage

Maybe this is worth a shot? I usually buy the cheapest everything and then wonder why it's bad, like a typical consumer.. but maybe the Simpson would like these.

 

[Retrovert]

For mission critical use (like flashlight batteries) I formerly purchased the Duracell line, which did not formerly leak, but now are sieves. Like I said, time to go to NiMH, even though the cost is more, and recharge twice a year. The self-discharge is now excellent, being at roughly 70% charge after a year. I can live with that if I forget to charge a battery. Just not suitable for circuits built around zinc-carbon cells. So not suitable to set the bias on a Dynaco ST-70, an EICO amplifier or tape deck, etc.

The Energizer warranty covers all batteries. If you look at the names of the batteries produced, I think the text covers the entirety. It looks the same in the US.

Rayovac will similarly replace any item damaged by a leak:

https://www.rayovac.com/support/warranties-and-guarantees.aspx
Leak-Proof Guarantee
Formally Damaged Device Guarantee
Every single RAYOVAC® Alkaline Battery is designed to prevent damaging leaks and tested twice prior to shipment. That’s why your devices are protected by our Leak-Proof Guarantee. In the unlikely event of alkaline battery leakage, any battery operated device that is damaged by RAYOVAC® Alkaline Batteries will be repaired, replaced or refunded, at our option, as long as the batteries have not expired or been mixed by expiry date and/or battery type.​

 

[N8Nagel]

Even worse for a lot of my VOMs, they need to be "operationally ready" and needing to remove screws to access the battery compartment is simply not feasible. Actually thinking about it again, I think all of my VOMs, FETVM or not, requires at least one screw to be removed to replace batteries...

I'm glad I have a bench DMM that runs off of either a wall wart or battery (6x"C" and its battery life is pretty miserable, talk about expensive battery swaps and yes I've had to deal with a leak in this too...) As it's a DMM, it constantly draws power when on. Accidentally leaving it on and killing the batteries is a great way to induce electrolyte leaks...

That's the problem with a Simpson, you have to undo two bolts (handle) and the screw to get to the batteries, at least when it's in the fake leather case.

 

[audiodummy]

My leak situation has solely been due to one of these causes:
1. Leaving item on by mistake or not - includes low quiescent draw (like clocks, remote controls) -- and draining most or all of the way. Accidentally leaving things on happens more often than one thinks...
2. Mixing used and new batteries or types of batteries
3. Recharging them in any way.
4. Heating them (soldering or just hot cars, doesn't matter)
That is not to say these are the only way to cause a leak as I can't discount age related seal falure, but these are what does it for me.

IMHO, once an alkaline cell drops below around 1.2V OCV or so, do NOT trust this cell for not leaking. As soon as it drops this low, the chance of a leak goes up significantly, and from the sounds of it, you can't calibrate analog meter resistance to 0 anyway so change it!

Perhaps people just got unlucky here or have an extreme low tolerance as in "once bitten twice shy"? Despite the leaks and damage, after cleaning and repair I still use alkaline, even cheap alkaline where it makes sense. I've yet to find a digital camera that uses alkaline batteries effectively, they never have acceptable performance in them, and will only use them in emergency situations.

TBH, I've started to despise NiMH cells, they tend to wear out faster than I expect them to wear out... I have one set of "hybrid" (low self discharge) ray-o-vac NiMH that too are no longer low impedance and though still work for light loads, are now useless for digital cameras...

 

[fred soop]

Do people actually use the resistance measurements on analog VOMs these days?
.....

Yes. Especially for very low resistance. The digital is always off by a digit or two. The analog meter is good to almost zero ohms. But, the voltage can vary during a measurement. I short the leads, zero the meter, make the measurement, then short the leads again to make sure it is still at zero. If not, repeat the process.

The analog meter also works well for checking a capacitor using a resistance scale. The meter will show a lower resistance, then rise to a very high resistance. This indicates that the capacitor is good.

Another analog meter advantage is adjusting something for a minimum or maximum.

 

[audiodummy]

Yes. Especially for very low resistance. The digital is always off by a digit or two. The analog meter is good to almost zero ohms. But, the voltage can vary during a measurement. I short the leads, zero the meter, make the measurement, then short the leads again to make sure it is still at zero. If not, repeat the process.

Most DMMs I can get several digits worth of precision just by measuring and then measuring with the leads shorted and doing the math which should be real easy if it's only the last digit. And usually I get better accuracy with the DMM instead of having to interpolate the scale. DMMs use a regulated current source or bridge to measure resistance, so battery voltage changing over time isn't a big issue until the battery no longer supplies enough voltage for the regulator/bridge to operate.
My 4½ digit DMMs especially the HP3466A in the 20Ω scale, fractional ohms are quite readable.) I don't see this accuracy in analog meters, at least the ones with only Rx1, Rx100, Rx10K. The Heathkit V7A VTVOM I had may be an exception as its multipliers were sequential powers of 10 (Rx1, Rx10, Rx100, Rx1K, Rx10K, Rx100K, Rx1M) instead of every other power... so this may hold an exception, but still obsoleted by my DMMs.

The analog meter also works well for checking a capacitor using a resistance scale. The meter will show a lower resistance, then rise to a very high resistance. This indicates that the capacitor is good.

I can see this effect with a DMM as well. It's not like the actual low reading means anything on an analog meter either, and the true lowest reading (effectively the ESR of the capacitor) is too fast for even a fast analog movement to catch.

Another analog meter advantage is adjusting something for a minimum or maximum.

But what would an analog buy you for doing this with resistance? A DMM will do just fine for doing this with resistance.

While for voltage and current I still value analog VOMs, but resistance there's no reason for me to do so, unless it's all that I have to measure resistance with. So technically I could just leave the batteries out, until it becomes the only VOM I have handy...

 

[trainbuftony]

But what would an analog buy you for doing this with resistance? A DMM will do just fine for doing this with resistance

You can watch the needle and tweak the pot until the lowest or highest reading is reached with the needle. Theoretically a dvom does the same, but if its auto ranging, or otherwise too smart for its own good, you may find yourself reaching for an analog meter.

I occasionally do, and im just a kid of 35 years...