Single CD player vs. changer or DVD

[Mr. Lin]

Enormous enough to make reliable identification of a difference in DB tests?

I think you're trying to have it both ways; you appear to believe that differences that are enormous cannot be reliably identified in a process intended to remove emotional input. Fellas spend a great deal of effort rationalizing this contradiction.

You can hear it or you can't; that's it.

I've already addressed the DB test issue over and over again here and in the TOL forum. Your statement doesn't make any sense. The differences have an emotional impact, how could a test that removes emotional input even be remotely effective?

I'm not trying to rationalize anything, I don't give a damn if you or anybody else thinks I'm fooling myself. In fact I'm only arguing the point because honestly I think you're totally wrong and off base with your argument, and I think telling people there's no significant differences between CD players is basically spreading misinformation.

To your last point, I can hear a couple differences between my CD players right away, but most of them unfold over extended listening. The "you hear it or you don't" argument doesn't apply 100% to hi-fi because it's not an on or off thing. Like I said before, the differences between the more expensive CD players and cheaper ones are subtle at first, but over time they can potentially have a tremendous impact on the overall listening experience. There's an awful lot of people in this hobby who would agree with that statement, but I suppose you think we're all delusional.

 

[Tom Brennan]

I've already addressed the DB test issue over and over again here and in the TOL forum. Your statement doesn't make any sense. The differences have an emotional impact, how could a test that removes emotional input even be remotely effective?

I'm talking about emotion before listening that creates a bias, not emotion as a result of listening. Like the emotional involvement in one's gear or one's self image as an astute and refined judge of gear. An image DB testing puts on the line. And possibly threatens.

I hear differences in gear and I'm not arguing there are not differences. However I'm also fully aware of people's ability to bullshit themselves about hi-fi (not to mention things FAR more important than hi-fi). And having bullshitted myself I'm quite confident in the ability of others to do the same.

And I'm still capable of kidding myself. How about you? Do you admit the possibility?

Note that delusion among large groups of people is not uncommon; it's called religion.

 

[HTHMAN]

I have no doubt that there are differences in quality in CD players. The better units should have lower noise, more constant motors etc. My big difference is convenience.

I have a vintage Kenwood single player with direct input for programming, a conventional Pioneer single, a Symphonic 5 disk changer I got as a gift and use for background music with my in ceiling speakers and a Sony 5 disc DVD player (that I have no idea why I bought-when is the last time you watched 5 straight hours of movies?) that I now use as a CD changer hooked up to my home theater receiver. Trying to program a changer is a nightmare. You need to make out a spreadsheet just to keep track of it. The direct input Kenwood is by far the most convenient. For what I use them, they are all quite adequate and sound just fine. Even if the sound were the same, I would never consider hooking the Symphonic changer to any of my good audio equipment. If it sounded as good, it would deflate the ego you have from spending the extra buck on good stuff.

 

[myu701]

Doing a very objective double-blind test is extremely difficult, and even if done it's hard to know it was. The one thing most people overlook that is so significant, is the listener. Not only does your hearing ability change due to age and exposure to loud environments, it's also proven that genetically some people have superior hearing to others from the starting gate. Plus there's the coloring of one's own personal tastes with sound. Some like it all natural, others prefer it a little colored. There may even be other nuances that they don't consciously recognize.

I think the only tests that make sense are ones that you do yourself. You A/B system components with whatever sources you wish, close your eyes, and just try to hear what sounds good to you.

I've walked into fine audio stores and listened to systems of hefty pricing. And yeah, I can really tell that the gear I heard is of high quality. Some of it blew me away, in terms of complete fullness of music. So, I know my ears are working fine. Knowing this, I've done A/B tests with a variety of digital players with the same music (duplicated CD's) and, as I stated earlier, I was amazed to find a mid tier priced Kenwood CDP sounded extremely close to my TOTL Marantz DVDP. The differences were very subtle. If I had to give up my Marantz and stick with the Kenwood, I could probably live with it. But part of what is appealing to the Marantz is the seriously great build quality. That's just my experience... Someone like Mr. Lin might be able to perceive more of a difference. And that is what drives him to buying several CDP's costing thousands.

I really think that both sides should avoid slamming each other. People who can afford TOTL digital players and say they hear a difference should be respected. Likewise, a person who doesn't perceive much difference between a variety of digital players shouldn't be knocked for sticking with a mid tier component.

 

[Condorsat]

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[Mr. Lin]

I agree....Just the other day....I played the same CD on three different units....$110, $250 and an $800 (tubed output) CD player. As expected the first unit sounded okay (just not engaging)....2nd sounded better (toe taping)....the last one delivered a "real" emotional experience...that improved even more when the tubes warmed up....I'm talking about being drawn into the performance (engaged).

You're delusional.

 

[cwall99]

I have a nice little universal disk player (pre-Blu Ray), an Oppo 980H or something like that (I really wish manufacturers would make their product names a bit easier to remember). Stereophile really liked the player, naming it one of their top 10 digital sources in 2008 or 2007 (again, I forget which, but if you go search their site, you'll be able to find the "best of" article).

What I really like about it is that the player only cost about $170 when I bought it, and everything else on that list cost at least 12 or 13 times as much. What Stereophile did say, though, was that the performance of the Oppo was good, not great, when you used its analog outputs (really, its own internal DAC and related circuitry), and that it improved significantly when you output its signal digitally, preferably by HDMI (since you can't output SACD and DVD-A over anything but analog or HDMI).

Do other players sound better? Probably. I'm saving my pennies for a new Oppo BDP-983, but until I have the $$$, my 980 will have to do.

Here's the thing, since I was impatient and wanted to get into Blu Ray, I bought a starter unit, a low-end Panasonic unit, and it freaking sounds amazing on Blu Ray content. It only outputs audio over HDMI, so if I play a redbook CD over it, it pretty much sounds the same as the same redbook CD over the Oppo.

Why? Well, because the same bits are being picked up off the disk, and it's the DAC circuitry in my AVR that's doing all the heavy lifting (it's a pretty nice Pioneer Elite unit with some really nice Burr-Brown DACs). So, given an identical stream of bits flowing into the DACs, they're going to do the same thing with those bits irrespective of which HDMI input those bits are coming across on.

I will say this, though... DVD-Audio and SACD, even on my little Oppo (sounds like a child's toy... no, wait, that would be my little pony, sorry) sound markedly superior to CD, however, I would definitely give the edge to DVD-A. Without a doubt, the finest sounding recordings in my collection are Steely Dan's Gaucho on DVD-A and Donald Fagen's Morph the Cat, also on DVD-A.

Next, I'd probably have to say that my copy of Hugh Masekela's Hope (a live album) on 12-inch 45 RPM 180 gram vinyl.

But vinyl is definitely something where it makes sense to invest in a superior playback system (though I haven't changed mine for 30 years, except for the cartridge).

The Burr-Brown DACs in my AVR do a tremendous job, so, unless I'm listening to the tuner or the turntable, I just feed bits to my AVR.

 

[1973BuickGS]

The Burr-Brown DACs in my AVR do a tremendous job, so, unless I'm listening to the tuner or the turntable, I just feed bits to my AVR.

Sounds like a good idea. My PD-M900 6 disc CD player has Burr-Brown DACs, and I love the way it sounds. :thmbsp:

 

[jt45]

IMOHO comparing single disc players to Multi-Disc players isnt where the difference lies but rather in the quality of the internals and the firmware that each player uses, so unless you can compare both types of players with the same internals and firmware it would not be a APPLES to APPLES test. And of course there is the issue of the other components in the chain wich may or may not respond differently to different, Again according to the quality of the internals and connections. Personally I think if it sounds good enough to make it hard to tell the difference ENJOY THE MUSIC.

 

[1973BuickGS]

IMOHO comparing single disc players to Multi-Disc players isnt where the difference lies but rather in the quality of the internals and the firmware that each player uses, so unless you can compare both types of players with the same internals and firmware it would not be a APPLES to APPLES test. And of course there is the issue of the other components in the chain wich may or may not respond differently to different, Again according to the quality of the internals and connections. Personally I think if it sounds good enough to make it hard to tell the difference ENJOY THE MUSIC.

I agree with that. As far as the non-audio part of it, I prefer the cartridge changers to make switching between collections of one artist's music to another artist's fast and simple (if you have multiple cartridges like I do). I prefer single disc players to carousel type changers because I hate emptying out the whole thing and reloading it.
I also love that the Pioneer 6 disc changers have the single disc cartridge that works like a tray for when you just want to listen to one disc that isn't already in a cartridge. :thmbsp:

 

[poppachubby]

I use a Yamaha CDC 575 as a transport. The signal is fed by toslink to my dac. It does a great job and is perfect for multi disc collections and such.