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SME 3009 II - Earlier (non-improved) vs. Improved?

T68 said:
So is improved an improvement?
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It was when new. It's less desirable today. When the 3009 S2 Improved was new and current, the cartridges then in vogue were high compliance, low mass, very light tracking MM and MI designs. 1 gram tracking forces were desired. In recent times, the medium compliance, medium mass MM and MC cartridges tracking around 2 grams are what's in vogue today. Which means the SME 3009 II is the better arm functionally speaking for most phono users of today, and for me was the better option then and now.
 
I would also say in the defence of the Improved, for its price I’ve found it still to be a fantastic sounding arm. It’s definitely more finicky with cartridge choice, but if you get the right combo, it’s awesome. You pay extra to remove that complexity with the non improved and rightly so.

Like towing a boat with a small car, can be done really well if you chose the right boat, but it’s never going to pull a 50’ power cruiser.
 
neevo said:
I would also say in the defence of the Improved, for its price I’ve found it still to be a fantastic sounding arm. It’s definitely more finicky with cartridge choice, but if you get the right combo, it’s awesome. You pay extra to remove that complexity with the non improved and rightly so.

Like towing a boat with a small car, can be done really well if you chose the right boat, but it’s never going to pull a 50’ power cruiser.
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Have a SME 3009 Improved (non removable headshell). My new Jelco TS-550S MKII is a much better tonearm. Bass is tighter and deeper sounding, more controlled. SME has flabby bass compared to the Jelco.
 
Ilikevinyl said:
Have a SME 3009 Improved (non removable headshell). My new Jelco TS-550S MKII is a much better tonearm. Bass is tighter and deeper sounding, more controlled. SME has flabby bass compared to the Jelco.
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Question! Which cartridges? That sounds like a compliance mismatch. Flabby bass is a sign of a compliance mismatch audibly speaking. Shure Brothers then were the USA importers for SME, SME designed the SME 3009 Improved with the Shure V 15 Type III in mind.
 
Blue Shadow said:
still looking for the brand and model of the cartridge used.
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Used AT VM540ML, Grado Gold3 on the SME 3009 Improved first. Both cartridges sound better on the Jelco. Even the vintage Empire 2000Z with original silver "T" stylus, sounds better on the Jelco.
 
There's the SME 3009R tonearm from the early '80's that most forget. It's the best 3009 version, IMO. Stainless steel arm tube. The only 3009 that the whole back end of the arm can shift left or right of the main arm tube axis. Has better horizontal knife edge pivot balance with different headshells, that weigh differently. Arm mass is 12.9 grams with supplied SME headshell.

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Ilikevinyl said:
Used AT VM540ML, Grado Gold3 on the SME 3009 Improved first. Both cartridges sound better on the Jelco. Even the vintage Empire 2000Z with original silver "T" stylus, sounds better on the Jelco.
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Your cartridges are matched fine. Within what the SME 3009 Improved's comfort zone. So you like the Jelco better, I know other people who do as well. So I respect highly what you say on this. Your ears and system are quality.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
Your cartridges are matched fine. Within what the SME 3009 Improved's comfort zone. So you like the Jelco better, I know other people who do as well. So I respect highly what you say on this. Your ears and system are quality.
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Many say the Jelco is better than a Rega RB300 arm.
 
Ilikevinyl said:
Many say the Jelco is better than a Rega RB300 arm.
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I think Jelco tonearms were sensibly designed and engineered for the needs of real world daily use. And built well. Even though I've never owned one, I've used a few in broadcast work, their arms with headshells are great for this. And never ever problems in day to day use.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
For me, any good Jelco arm with a headshell beats any RB 300. And for me doesn't requite 2 or 3 arms to cover the records I play optimally.
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For a while I was using the Jelco arm for my Grado mono cartridge too. Put the mono cartridge back on the Technics SL-1650. Easier that way, instead of adjusting the Jelco all the time.
 
What’s the price difference between the Improved and Jelco?

The SME3009R in Australia is about 3-4x the cost of an improved.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
It was when new. It's less desirable today. When the 3009 S2 Improved was new and current, the cartridges then in vogue were high compliance, low mass, very light tracking MM and MI designs. 1 gram tracking forces were desired. In recent times, the medium compliance, medium mass MM and MC cartridges tracking around 2 grams are what's in vogue today. Which means the SME 3009 II is the better arm functionally speaking for most phono users of today, and for me was the better option then and now.
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You have me debating between the two versions of the arm again...lol.

But I've also seen you post stuff about SME arms before, so I must ask..do you think any of my cartridge choices would be an issue on the Improved version of the arm? Obviously, the V15 III will be a good match, but what about the other carts? (Grado ZF1 [similar in rank to today's Prestige Silver], 2M Bronze/Black, MP-300/500).

They all seem to have a recommended VTF of around 1.5g, but I worry about the 1.5g limit on the Improved version of the arm, because some folks seem to prefer running all these carts at 1.6 or 1.7g. I don't want to put any undue stress on the bearings trying to push it higher, if that's a risk.

Alternatively, I've wondered about vintage Ortofon carts (which I read are higher compliance?) but I do like the 2M range and the Nagaoka MP-series.

P.S - FWIW, I will NOT be running any OEM styli on the Shure V15 III, but JICO - they seem to have a slightly higher VTF range - does that mean a bit lower in compliance than OEM?
 
KentTeffeteller said:
They're OK candidates. SME's engineering is conservative enough to do fine running them at VTF limit. Lots of Stanton 681 EEE owners did, with no trouble.
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Then I must also ask - do you feel I would be better off with the non-improved version?

Your sentiments give me the impression that the non-improved is the better choice for all of those cartridges (I'm not surprised, since it can work with their entire VTF range).

As much as I like the V15 III, I'd rather not compromise the performance of other carts I'd want to run than to go w/an arm that optimizes it for one. I already liked how it performed on a "bad" arm match too...(I ran it at 1.3g on a 16.5g arm)
 
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Taketheflame said:
Then I must also ask - do you feel I would be better off with the non-improved version?

Your sentiments give me the impression that the non-improved is the better choice for all of those cartridges (I'm not surprised, since it can work with their entire VTF range).

As much as I like the V15 III, I'd rather not compromise the performance of other carts I'd want to run than to go w/an arm that optimizes it for one. I already liked how it performed on a "bad" arm match too...(I ran it at 1.3g on a 16.5g arm)
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I favor having the entire VTF range to work with. Which is also a good reason to own the earlier II non improved tonearm.
 
I came across a 3009 several years ago, purchased it, and never installed it. Now I've got my interest up, but can't decide what version I own. It says "Shure SME" on the mounting base and the same on the headshell. Not familiar with SME 'arms the best I could figure is that my 'arm is a non-improved series II.

Would someone with SME knowledge please enlighten me:confused:

T I A
 
SB12345 said:
I came across a 3009 several years ago, purchased it, and never installed it. Now I've got my interest up, but can't decide what version I own. It says "Shure SME" on the mounting base and the same on the headshell. Not familiar with SME 'arms the best I could figure is that my 'arm is a non-improved series II.

Would someone with SME knowledge please enlighten me:confused:

T I A
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http://www.analogue-classics.com/html/sme_3009___3012.html
 
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