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Some Empire Turntable History

I have a Denon DL-103 on it right now. It doesn't have the headshell insert, the Denon just sort of snapped into the headshell like it was made for it. When I checked the alignment, it lined up with the cheap paper protractor I had onhand when I set it up exactly. It sounds great but I need to replace the motor grommets and want to add some dynamat to the inside of the plinth and under the top-plate.

You were lucky with the alignment. Something I forgot to mention in my post is that the headshell on the 98 arm doesn't allow for overhang adjustments after the tonearm is mounted. It has two tapped holes for screws and no way to slide the cartridge to and fro to dial in an alignment. I think that was common on arms of the period.

Good luck with it! It's sure sounds great doesn't it?

Lucky for all us Rek-O-Kut and Empire fans that exact replacement motor mount grommets are a common and not too expensive item on Ebay these days.
 
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Wow! What a great, comprehensive description of the history of, and differences between, Empire models. When I started the other thread by asking about the Empire models, I never dreamed such a comprehensive answer would be forthcoming. Congratulations on creating a valuable reference guide to all things Empire; your knowledge of these TTs is impressive, and thank you for taking time to write this all out and share it, so that the rest of us can learn and benefit.

I still don't have an Empire TT yet, but one day... all good things come to him who waits! :D
 
Wow! What a great, comprehensive description of the history of, and differences between, Empire models. When I started the other thread by asking about the Empire models, I never dreamed such a comprehensive answer would be forthcoming. Congratulations on creating a valuable reference guide to all things Empire; your knowledge of these TTs is impressive, and thank you for taking time to write this all out and share it, so that the rest of us can learn and benefit.

I still don't have an Empire TT yet, but one day... all good things come to him who waits! :D

Have we finally found the one thing available in America that isn't readily found in your drool-worthy Hong Kong market? I'd love to read a page-long, detailed post about you finding one...I really hope you do. I like your acquisition stories.
 
Wow! What a great, comprehensive description of the history of, and differences between, Empire models. When I started the other thread by asking about the Empire models, I never dreamed such a comprehensive answer would be forthcoming. Congratulations on creating a valuable reference guide to all things Empire; your knowledge of these TTs is impressive, and thank you for taking time to write this all out and share it, so that the rest of us can learn and benefit.

I still don't have an Empire TT yet, but one day... all good things come to him who waits! :D

Thanks! You're quite welcome.
 
My Thorens 124 came with a gold tonearm attached to it. The only thing I find strange about it is that the headshell has the lowercase letters "ae" on it.

Which Empire tonearm is this and what can you tell about its specs?

Scott
 
My Thorens 124 came with a gold tonearm attached to it. The only thing I find strange about it is that the headshell has the lowercase letters "ae" on it.

Which Empire tonearm is this and what can you tell about its specs?

Scott

Sounds like the Empire 98 tonearm. The "ae" on the headshell stands for "Audio-Empire" which is what Empire called itself before it settled on "Dyna-Empire" and then finally, "Empire Scientific."

The arm looks like this but only in gold, right? http://cgi.ebay.com/EMPIRE-98-TONE-...rntable_Parts_Accessories?hash=item20aef41335

The specs for it are almoist identical to the 980 which are listed here: http://www.vinylengine.com/library/empire/980.shtml

A good arm for a low-compliance moving coil like the Denon 103. The only negative is the total lack of anti-skate adjustment.
 
Wow JohnVF, what a[nother] nice TT...first the VPI and now this :gigglemad

Nice!

I told you I have a sickness. The Empire is second only to the VPI in this house, and I owe the VPI purchase partly to how much I liked the sound of the Empire. I've read that Harry Weisfeld of VPI designed the classic in many ways as an update of the design philosophy of the Empire's and I have to say, you can hear it in the sound.
 
Empire Crazy

Hello,Lads, Great postings,
My tast in audio gear runs strictly to vintage gear, for both the look and sound of it. I am shamelessly in love with the Empire turntables, and have been collecting them and any information about them.

I currently own seven Empires, 2, 398's 3, 598 III's 2, 698's and a custom 598 with a modified SME 3009 tonearm to fit the stock Empire mount.

I have learned a lot about these great tables, and one thing for sure, is they are the best tables I have owned in 45 years of buying gear and records.
I don't know about $2,500 or $25,000 tables and never will.

I have figure out a fix for the 598 tonearm with cue problems and will post it soon.
I have also had great luck in restoring the finish on the 598 tonearms if they aren't too bad off..

I will post some information on the 598 arm from taking apart a damaged arm after salvaging the cueing parts and the headshell.. What I can say now, is...... DO NOT!! try to take apart a 598 arm, all of the bearings are press fit, and held in with redundant and heavy retaining rings that take special tools to remove. Just about everything on this arm say's factory repair only! The only things you can safely remove are the counter weight and the cueing parts.

The only things you can do is repair the cue, and rewire with a lot of difficulty, but can be done you can remove the headshell to swap or repair a broken finer lift, as it is sweated on with a rosin, and not soldered on.

I also found a factory accessory mount to use the 590 arm on other tables or to retrofit the 398 table with the newer arm.

Owners of 398 and lower number tables, will see a drilled hole next to the button feet, this was for a factory accessory rubber shock absorber foot. I found that the Thorens "mushroom"" isolators are a match for the option foot and do wonders for vibrations on the 398 table.

I have tracked down the part number for the isolator grommets, and a supplier for the West coast, but I will need to buy a minimum of 60 pieces to place an order. If any one is willing to pay $15.00 includes shipping for a set. Let me know and I will put together an order, as this is cheaper than any of the resellers on Ebay.

Also, in one of my other hobbies I do molding and casting of poly resin parts. I an going to try to replicate the cartridge clip, but upgrade it to a no solder wire connector using a brass pin the will make contact to the arm as normal but able to slip the headshell wire on it like a normal headshell. I did a repair of a headshell with a damaged contact by removing the damaged contact, and filling the hole with JB weld, and redrilling to hole to fit a modified brass round head nail, and it works perfect.

Lastly, the big wall I have hit on researching Empire tables, is the dead end at 1980. What happened to the turntable division? I know the cartridge line went to Benz, but what happened to the last tables, the spare parts, the tooling etc. It's like they all fell into a vortex in 1980.

Well that was a lot of ramble, but I wanted to fit things into the post as I think I can help some of you on the cue repair and clean up of the finish on the 598 arm. I am going to do a rewire of one arm this Spring, and will document that also.

Thanks for listening,

Donald Bowman
 
I have figure out a fix for the 598 tonearm with cue problems and will post it soon.

GREAT!! I just purchased a 598 and it has a problem with the cueing. Glad that mine isn't the only one.
 
Thank you very much empirelvr for starting this thread. It is has been an informative and interesting read on the Empire's. :thmbsp:
 
I currently own seven Empires, 2, 398's 3, 598 III's 2, 698's and a custom 598 with a modified SME 3009 tonearm to fit the stock Empire mount.

I did kind of the same thing. A friend who has a friend who owns a machine shop made the hole in the t-bar big enough to accept the SME arm. I had to alter the SME arm in a few other ways, but the results have been very worth it!


I will post some information on the 598 arm from taking apart a damaged arm after salvaging the cueing parts and the headshell.. What I can say now, is...... DO NOT!! try to take apart a 598 arm, all of the bearings are press fit, and held in with redundant and heavy retaining rings that take special tools to remove. Just about everything on this arm say's factory repair only! The only things you can safely remove are the counter weight and the cueing parts.

I second this! I successfully took apart and repaied my own stock 990 arm, but it was a "nothing to lose, everything to gain" situation. One gratifying thing was I found that the horizontal race bearings are a stock, common item so I was able to pick up two new bearings from my local hardware store. Oddly enough, the cuing on the 990 arms I've had never posed a problem.


Also, in one of my other hobbies I do molding and casting of poly resin parts. I an going to try to replicate the cartridge clip, but upgrade it to a no solder wire connector using a brass pin the will make contact to the arm as normal but able to slip the headshell wire on it like a normal headshell. I did a repair of a headshell with a damaged contact by removing the damaged contact, and filling the hole with JB weld, and redrilling to hole to fit a modified brass round head nail, and it works perfect.

THIS sounds really promising. I hope you can do this.

Lastly, the big wall I have hit on researching Empire tables, is the dead end at 1980. What happened to the turntable division? I know the cartridge line went to Benz, but what happened to the last tables, the spare parts, the tooling etc. It's like they all fell into a vortex in 1980.

In retrospect, Empire was an odd company from all I gathered over the years. I grew up in Brooklyn, not too far away from their Garden City location and I remember going there with my Uncle in about 1977 to try and get his 98 arm fixed. Even though I was only about 12, I could sense an atmosphere of tension there. (They kept it for about a month, then said they couldn't fix it. I fiddled with it later and found out my Uncle inadvertently reversed two of the leads in the headshell to the new cartridge he installed causing the problem. I think the repair people at Empire didn't even look at it.)

Plus it was impossible to find a dealer in the NYC area that carried the 698, despite it being a current model. Whenever my Uncle went looking...cash in hand...all he got were sniffs of disapproval and tried to steer him to other brands and models. This despite glowing test results from all the magazines. Eventually he found a dealer in NYC that special ordered it for him. It was hard finding their cartridges as well. Everyone only wanted to sell Stanton/Pickering and Shure. Never Empire, despite their aggressive advertising.

It got so bad, the only place you could get replacement belts in the late seventies were from Lyle Cartridges of Brooklyn NY.

I can only infer from all this that Empire must have been difficult to deal with on many levels. The Stereophile article I referenced above quoted Benz as saying how the factory wasn't very well maintained, with worn out machinery and a workforce that he implied was set in their ways and resentful of any attempts to modernize or increase production. Make of it what you will.

As to spare parts, they had 'em up to about 1990, though not for everything. I would assume all the tooling and machinery went into the dumpster after they moved from Garden City to Deer Park NY. When that happened I don't know, though I'm guessing it had to be after Benz cut his losses and closed down the NY factory entirely.
 
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The Odd Empire factory

Hello again Lads,
The factory floor may indeed have been an odd place, and the dealer network slim, but this may be be the strong point of these tables.

They just seem to last forever. Of all my tables, the only problems I had when first acquired were belts, isolators, and dirt.
All of my motors are dead quiet, tonearms except for the cueing are all working perfectly. What a testament to a near 50 year old machine to still run like new! How many hours are there on a 50 year old motor and still runs cool and noise free? All my tone arm bearings, and wires are still fine.
The weight adjustment are within .10 of a gram of being true
I think that the only real problem one will find is just plain abuse and neglect.

What hooked me, was my fist Empire was a 398, and once cleaned up it worked like new, I cleaned out the platter bearing, added oil, and without a belt gave the platter a spin. Four minutes and 48 seconds later it finally stopped. I asked myself right then, who the hell still makes this kind of precision and quality any more?

The dealers may have hated them, as it would be the last table the customer would ever buy. Maybe the same for cartridges, I have two Empire 4000 DIII's that are still on their original stylus ans still are singing away.

Another point may be the refusal of the turntable division to change, as there really was no need to, why change perfection? Like those old Empire ads said, "It may be the last turntable you ever own"
No explanation why your Uncle had a problem with their repair people.
But I have had a lot of so called electronic service techs tell me that there is nothing that could be done, and wound up as a small fix and repaired it myself

Donald Bowman
 
My cartridge Clip repair

Hello Lads,
here are some photos of my clip repair. When I got this clip, it was obvious someone had the iron on it without a heat sink and the contact was melted out of the clip. I removed the old contact filled the hole with epoxy. drilled a hole to be a tight fit on a brass nail that I cut to length and narrowed the head, You can see the headshell wire now slips on with no solder.

I am confident I can make a new one with this style contact pin. The only problem is the headshell retaining nut. Empire used the same nut here as they used for the cartridge mounting screws, It has squared off shoulder and is cast into the clip, with a bit of it sticking up through the clip. I will have to figure out how to mount the nut and what nut to use. I wish I could find a source for those nuts, as they make mounting the cartridge a breeze on these clips.

Donald Bowman
 

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Empire Tonearm Mass and Wiring Route

Hello Lads
Here are some photos showing what the mass or a 990 arm is, and the wiring route you have to make if you want to rewire your arm.

Here is a photo of the naked tube, the headshell and a clip, and they tip the scales at a combined 56 grams. I don't know if this makes it a heavy mass or not for a tonearm.
The next is the wiring route from the headshell contacts to the din plug.
These are some really fine wires, I guess 32 AWG with a very thing insulation.

You see they go from the contact clip on the headshell to the din plug. The small metal tab is the headshell ground that goes to your ground wire.
The din plug is in there solid as it is roll crimped to the mounting tube. and if you remove it, you need to find a way to remount it to the tube. I have seen a rewire that got rid of the din plug and just extended the wires to RCA jacks mounted to the base. I have been looking at making a replacement plug that would slide into the tube and attach via a scre into the side of the tube, I will have to find some DIN pins to mount into a plug that I can make a mold of to make copies, and then use a stardard 5 pin RCA cable.

More late on the cue system.

Donald Bowman
 

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I have tracked down the part number for the isolator grommets, and a supplier for the West coast, but I will need to buy a minimum of 60 pieces to place an order. If any one is willing to pay $15.00 includes shipping for a set. Let me know and I will put together an order, as this is cheaper than any of the resellers on Ebay.


Donald Bowman

Are they applicable to all models?
A friend of my has at least two Empire turntables.
He would be delighted to get new isolator grommets for them.
 
Isolators

Hello,
as to the isolators, they are all the same as the motors are alike with only the spindle changed over time.
I will let this list know if and when I buy a bulk purchase.
Donald bowman
 
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