Sound of Bonded Versus Nude Styli

[Garven]

I haven't had any recent experience with bonded styli (meaning since I got back into turntables in this century. I undoubtedly had some on cheaper turntables as a youth), but I'm curious if given the same stylus profile/size, etc., will there be a noticeable difference in sound between a bonded stylus and a nude one? I'm planning to buy a turntable with removable headshell later this year and I have an old Super OM cartridge body I plan to bring back into duty. There are several options for a new stylus, including the OM10 bonded elliptical or the OM20 nude. Also, there's the Shibata OM40 replacements sold by both LPGear and Turntableneedles.com that are bonded. I know there's a physical difference with the mounting of the styli, but does this difference affect the sound?

 

[gusten]

I haven't had any recent experience with bonded styli (meaning since I got back into turntables in this century. I undoubtedly had some on cheaper turntables as a youth), but I'm curious if given the same stylus profile/size, etc., will there be a noticeable difference in sound between a bonded stylus and a nude one? I'm planning to buy a turntable with removable headshell later this year and I have an old Super OM cartridge body I plan to bring back into duty. There are several options for a new stylus, including the OM10 bonded elliptical or the OM20 nude. Also, there's the Shibata OM40 replacements sold by both LPGear and Turntableneedles.com that are bonded. I know there's a physical difference with the mounting of the styli, but does this difference affect the sound?

In my experience, from effecting rather much to not so much. The problem is normally that we are not normally just listening to bonded versus nude. We are also listening to differences in needle shape, polishing and different cantilevers.

So for some the difference is large, like between OM10 and OM20, for some not so much like ATS12S and ATN15.

But usually, yes the nude is (much) better.

 

[Garven]

In my experience, from effecting rather much to not so much. The problem is normally that we are not normally just listening to bonded versus nude. We are also listening to differences in needle shape, polishing and different cantilever.

So for some the difference is large, like between OM10 and OM20, for some not so much like ATS12S and ATN15.

But usually, yes the nude is (much) better.

Thanks. I'm surprised there's such a difference between the OM10 and 20 for example because they're both elliptical styli with a tip radius of 0.3 x 0.7 mil, same compliance and same distortion figures. The tracking ability is different (70µm for the 10, 70µm for the 20). Would this be due to material?

 

[gusten]

Thanks. I'm surprised there's such a difference between the OM10 and 20 for example because they're both elliptical styli with a tip radius of 0.3 x 0.7 mil, same compliance and same distortion figures. The tracking ability is different (70µm for the 10, 70µm for the 20). Would this be due to material?

But the OM20 is a true elliptical 0.3 x 0.7 mil needle with a square shank, well polished. It´s rather different from an OM10.

 

[jasonsong86]

I recently was given a nude AT450 for free and compared it to AT100E the difference is pretty big. Much better transparency, imaging, and tonal balance. The bonded stylus sounds like there is a very thin fabric covering the speakers where the nude one sounds like there is none.
Although I am comparing two very different cartridges but it's definitely worth the money.

 

[marcmorin]

The way the diamond is attached to the cantilever is really a non-issue. The bonding material does not touch the vinyl. The diamond does not "vibrate" at a different frequency than what it is bonded to. Except in a few instances, the weight of the actual diamond and it's bonding has very little affect (usually less than 10%) of the total calculated "effective tip mass". The cut of the stone, polish, etc. if equal on a glued in (nude) stone to a welded to bonded stone and mounted on identical cantilevers will have no noticable difference in reproduction.

 

[iLUVanalog]

The way the diamond is attached to the cantilever is really a non-issue. The bonding material does not touch the vinyl. The diamond does not "vibrate" at a different frequency than what it is bonded to. Except in a few instances, the weight of the actual diamond and it's bonding has very little affect (usually less than 10%) of the total calculated "effective tip mass". The cut of the stone, polish, etc. if equal on a glued in (nude) stone to a welded to bonded stone and mounted on identical cantilevers will have no noticable difference in reproduction.

I would agree with this.

 

[gusten]

The way the diamond is attached to the cantilever is really a non-issue. The bonding material does not touch the vinyl. The diamond does not "vibrate" at a different frequency than what it is bonded to. Except in a few instances, the weight of the actual diamond and it's bonding has very little affect (usually less than 10%) of the total calculated "effective tip mass". The cut of the stone, polish, etc. if equal on a glued in (nude) stone to a welded to bonded stone and mounted on identical cantilevers will have no noticable difference in reproduction.

But it´s difficult to know usually, as 'everything is the same but the bonding', is hard to find. I don´t know if these needles really exist, the closest to this I have compared is the Audio Technica ATS12S to the ATN15.
Both have a true Shibata tip, both are well polished, and they both use exactly the same cantilever. But there is no problem hearing a difference between them, where the ATN15 has a cleaner treble.
But it´s not really easy to know. Would I use a bonded stylus, no I wouldn´t as long as I can buy nude ones.
We could say the OM10 and the OM20, or the 2MRed and 2MBlue also should sound the same, they don´t.

 

[Grbluen]

But it´s difficult to know usually, as 'everything is the same but the bonding', is hard to find. I don´t know if these needles really exist, the closest to this I have compared is the Audio Technica ATS12S to the ATN15.
Both have a true Shibata tip, both are well polished, and they both use exactly the same cantilever. But there is no problem hearing a difference between them, where the ATN15 has a cleaner treble.
But it´s not really easy to know.

Is the compliance the same on both?

 

[gusten]

Is the compliance the same on both?

Yes exaxtly the same.

 

[muovimies]

I have a Benz MC20E2-L low output moving coil with a bonded .3x.7 elliptical stylus. Sounds excellent and it is the quietest cart I've heard regarding groove noise, even quieter than the Ortofon MC10 Supreme or any MM line contact I've heard. That said, that is the only cartridge I've heard with a bonded stylus that compares equally or favourably to nude examples, except for looks... it just doesn't look pretty, but sounds very good.

 

[marcmorin]

But it´s difficult to know usually, as 'everything is the same but the bonding', is hard to find. I don´t know if these needles really exist, the closest to this I have compared is the Audio Technica ATS12S to the ATN15.
.

and one was designed to run into a low inductance body, and the other was designed to run into a higher inductance body. And if you run the low inductance type stylus in a high inductance type body, the resistive loading must be changed. I believe you're hearing the effects of inductance, and the back EMF that occurs due to the inductance. the mechanical damping of the two styli have to be different.

 

[drum2live]

I had an opportunity to audition a bonded and nude in the same cartridge body both with the same stylus profile. The cartridge body was a Grace F9. I could hear a difference between the two, although not large. The nude seemed a little more "fleet of foot" so to speak. Treble had a little more sparkle. Bass articulation with the nude was slightly improved (like plucked acoustic bass). There is a difference, but the key word is slightly....

 

[gusten]

and one was designed to run into a low inductance body, and the other was designed to run into a higher inductance body. And if you run the low inductance type stylus in a high inductance type body, the resistive loading must be changed. I believe you're hearing the effects of inductance, and the back EMF that occurs due to the inductance. the mechanical damping of the two styli have to be different.

No they are used with same inductance 370mH.