Speaker cables have shown to made a difference... does it matter?

[moejr]

I bought decent interconnects at $80-$130 a piece. I thought that was expensive enough and I like the sound they supply. I have never had the fancy speaker wires. I use 12ga monster cable and 14ga no name wire. I swapped some of the monster cable out for the 14ga and at equal lengths I heard no difference. I have pretty good ears so I would be able to hear the difference if there was one. That said the speaker wire I run sounds great to me and it won't break the bank.

My .02

 

[Snow]

Pretty poorly stated, and quite combative to boot. But there is an element that I agree with. If you can't hear the difference, or your system is not that revealing, then high performance cables are a waste of money.

But I do not agree with the hearing impaired point. Nobody starts with a trained ear, and they have to learn the skills to set up a system, tune a room, pick gear that meets their needs and wants, and learn what wire packages work well in the context of their system. Also, the hearing impaired can experience the differences between cables and equipment, to insinuate that they can't is wrong. I know many of them use it as justification, but it really is more of a crutch in my opinion. If your hearing tops out at $13K, you can still hear the differences between gear and wire. On more than one occasion I have had new people over to the house with "untrained" ears and self professed poor hearing. When they were given specific reference points to listen to, they clearly and admittedly identified what the differences were between components and wires. So I don't write people off when they have hearing issues, they can still enjoy great hi fi.




Referencing the bold parts of the text. Cables operate in context of a system, some refer to them as the equivalent of a component. Not sure if I buy into that idea whole heartedly, but there is a degree of truth there...and a symbiotic relationship. High resolution components will show what a cable system can and cannot due. On the other hand, poor cabling will hamstring the electronics and not allow them to reach their full potential. It's a two way street, and one cannot excel without the other. One thing that is important to note. There are a certain degree of improvements that can only be realized by high performance cables. They cannot be had from stepping up to another level of gear. While you may get better sound by buying two levels up in amp or source, that piece still cannot be all that it can be without a suitable package of wiring. To repeat myself, one does not excel without the other.

But you have to choose wisely. Price is not a reliable indicator of performance or quality. Cables do sound different, just like every other component in the audio chain. I suggest to others that they take the time to listen for themselves, and make up their own minds. Only then will you know what cables are right for you, your system, and your budget. I have heard $500 interconnects I like better than $3000 ones, and I am secure enough in what I hear to make the choices that satisfy me.

Regards
Mister Pig

Well you can interpret what I said any way you want, it wasn't meant in a combative way simply an opinion is all. Most of us by the time we start hanging out on an audio forum are far more serious about music than the average Joe who is happy with their Ipod and HTIB.

For example I don't hang out at wine tasting forums for a couple of reasons one is that I really couldndt tell you the difference between a 5 buck bottle and a 5k bottle so why bother? I highly doubt I could ever be trained to do so simply because I don't have the sensitive taste buds needed for such nor do I even like the taste. It all tastes pretty much the same to me awful with varying degrees of bad and worse.

For the people who cant hear a difference between speaker wire why would you bother to spend the time and money on a hobby that you cant fully participate in? I understand what you are saying about training your ears to to pick out differences in music between cables but I think that if you truly cant hear a difference then your money and time is best spent elsewhere because in all likely hood the only difference you are going to notice from amp to amp or TT to TT or any other component is that one is louder than the other.

With good untrained ears you will notice there is a difference, you may not be able to identify what those differences are exactly but you can certainly hear a difference and have a preference. I think the ones you mentioned above may be hearing impaired to a point but not to the point where they cant hear a difference, they may not be able to identify exactly what the differences are but can distinguish between tones and sound stage, imaging etc.

The people I was referring to in my initial statement are those that truly cant tell a difference at all or simply don't care because it isn't important to them.

When I first started getting into audio stuff I had no idea that music could sound so good or so different between types of gear. I had a friend I worked with that was and still is an audiophile. I had went to our local Sams club and had listened to some of the HTIB systems they had and told him I was planning on buying one, he was aghast at the thought and promptly took me to a couple of different audio stores locally and I was truly amazed at the difference in sound quality between what Sams had for sale and a set of separate components in the audio stores. I honestly didnt know there was such a huge difference in sound quality until that day.

That being said I could not have told you what the differences were exactly from note to note on any particular track or album only that to my ears it sounded way better, as time went on I got more and more into audio hence the reason I joined this and other forums, but if I had been truly hearing impaired to the point I could not distinguish a difference or appreciate it I would not be here.




REGARDS SNOW

 

[Mister Pig]

Well you can interpret what I said any way you want, it wasn't meant in a combative way simply an opinion is all. Most of us by the time we start hanging out on an audio forum are far more serious about music than the average Joe who is happy with their Ipod and HTIB.

For example I don't hang out at wine tasting forums for a couple of reasons one is that I really couldndt tell you the difference between a 5 buck bottle and a 5k bottle so why bother? I highly doubt I could ever be trained to do so simply because I don't have the sensitive taste buds needed for such nor do I even like the taste. It all tastes pretty much the same to me awful with varying degrees of bad and worse.

For the people who cant hear a difference between speaker wire why would you bother to spend the time and money on a hobby that you cant fully participate in? I understand what you are saying about training your ears to to pick out differences in music between cables but I think that if you truly cant hear a difference then your money and time is best spent elsewhere because in all likely hood the only difference you are going to notice from amp to amp or TT to TT or any other component is that one is louder than the other.

With good untrained ears you will notice there is a difference, you may not be able to identify what those differences are exactly but you can certainly hear a difference and have a preference. I think the ones you mentioned above may be hearing impaired to a point but not to the point where they cant hear a difference, they may not be able to identify exactly what the differences are but can distinguish between tones and sound stage, imaging etc.

The people I was referring to in my initial statement are those that truly cant tell a difference at all or simply don't care because it isn't important to them.

When I first started getting into audio stuff I had no idea that music could sound so good or so different between types of gear. I had a friend I worked with that was and still is an audiophile. I had went to our local Sams club and had listened to some of the HTIB systems they had and told him I was planning on buying one, he was aghast at the thought and promptly took me to a couple of different audio stores locally and I was truly amazed at the difference in sound quality between what Sams had for sale and a set of separate components in the audio stores. I honestly didnt know there was such a huge difference in sound quality until that day.

That being said I could not have told you what the differences were exactly from note to note on any particular track or album only that to my ears it sounded way better, as time went on I got more and more into audio hence the reason I joined this and other forums, but if I had been truly hearing impaired to the point I could not distinguish a difference or appreciate it I would not be here.




REGARDS SNOW

Saying that the truly hearing impaired and those who don't care about sound shouldn't be concerned about cabling, or even hi fi gear is a bit of a no brainer. Its like saying Eskimos shouldn't be worried about owing bikinis and air conditioning.

As you say, those who participate in these audio forums should love music and audio gear to one degree or another. AK is an oddity, in that many of the forum members here are very sceptical and distrusting of much of what this hobby has to offer. Its very weird, for I have never seen another hobby where the participants are so distrusting of the manufacturers in their field. AK has a strong vintage and cheap skate bent, much of which tends to worship at the cult of the archaic.

But it is what it is, and there are a lot of good folk here. So I take the good with the bad, and still enjoy talking about what interests me.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

It can be said that there is more than one goal in this hobby, and that people have varying ways of measuring success. While it would make things simpler if everyone thought like me, it certainly would be less diverse. My intention was to provide an alternate POV, rather than saying what is right and wrong. Carry on my friend, and have fun with your gear, for you certainly have a collection that is drool worthy.

Regards
Mister Pig

I didn't mean to come off as defensive as I did. It's simply that I have explored cables to varying degrees. I have probably put well over $1000 into cables (many of which are balanced, waiting for another preamp someday) and have played with different ones. And while I like what I have, nothing that I've heard has impressed me to the degree that I'm just chomping at the bit to spend a fortune finding the "right" one, when I really like the sound that I already have. If I was hearing drastic changes from one cable to another, instead of the subtle (but admittedly important) differences, I'd be more apt to pursue it more than I have.

Part of me just gets tired of the constant need to upgrade things, and the constant pressure by others to suggest that "you're not done". I love my system right now, it is so much better than it was a year ago, and better than most systems, to my taste, that I hear while out. And none of the cables are basic, but they also aren't exotic.

I put silver binding post ties on my Harbeths, isn't that something?

 

[Snow]

Saying that the truly hearing impaired and those who don't care about sound shouldn't be concerned about cabling, or even hi fi gear is a bit of a no brainer. Its like saying Eskimos shouldn't be worried about owing bikinis and air conditioning.

As you say, those who participate in these audio forums should love music and audio gear to one degree or another. AK is an oddity, in that many of the forum members here are very sceptical and distrusting of much of what this hobby has to offer. Its very weird, for I have never seen another hobby where the participants are so distrusting of the manufacturers in their field. AK has a strong vintage and cheap skate bent, much of which tends to worship at the cult of the archaic.

But it is what it is, and there are a lot of good folk here. So I take the good with the bad, and still enjoy talking about what interests me.

Regards
Mister Pig

Well you would think so yes.... but the amount of people who swear that they cant hear "any"difference as you mentioned earlier is amazing, by me stating that if you truly are that hard of hearing or tone deaf that your money will be better spent elsewhere other than on audio items was meant as more of a hey I call BS than anything else.

I think in most cases that those claiming that all speaker cables sound the same is actually being that they simply haven't heard enough types of cables is far more likely than then them actually being hearing impaired which many do claim.

Virtually anyone can hear a difference between solid silver speaker cable and oxygen free copper whether that difference is something they like or are willing to spend the money on is another whole thing or whether the difference is too slight to justify the cost but they can almost certainly detect a difference.


It may have sounded like I was being a disruptive ass by saying that but hey it got people to thinking :yes:

I believe that anyone that has a love of audio regardless of whether they own mega buck gear or have the most basic system found at a yard sale or a thrift store has the right to be here because we share that passion.


I am in no way superior to anyone here because I have better hearing or own a nicer system, there will always be someone with better hearing and more money than I.

It is the ones that claim a difference does not exist because they cant detect it who are the ones that irritate me, if you cant detect a difference fine but don't tell me that I or someone else cant.

I am about half blind in one eye and can barely see out of the other one, I have a brother that has exceptional eyesight he can spot a car a half a mile away tell me the make model and what the people inside look like before I can make out whether it is even a car or a truck, just because I cant see it doesnt make it any less real to him or those who can.



REGARDS SNOW

 

[Rapidan]

Well you would think so yes.... but the amount of people who swear that they cant hear "any"difference as you mentioned earlier is amazing, by me stating that if you truly are that hard of hearing or tone deaf that your money will be better spent elsewhere other than on audio items was meant as more of a hey I call BS than anything else.

I think in most cases that those claiming that all speaker cables sound the same is actually being that they simply haven't heard enough types of cables is far more likely than then them actually being hearing impaired which many do claim.

Virtually anyone can hear a difference between solid silver speaker cable and oxygen free copper whether that difference is something they like or are willing to spend the money on is another whole thing or whether the difference is too slight to justify the cost but they can almost certainly detect a difference.


It may have sounded like I was being a disruptive ass by saying that but hey it got people to thinking :yes:

I believe that anyone that has a love of audio regardless of whether they own mega buck gear or have the most basic system found at a yard sale or a thrift store has the right to be here because we share that passion.


I am in no way superior to anyone here because I have better hearing or own a nicer system, there will always be someone with better hearing and more money than I.

It is the ones that claim a difference does not exist because they cant detect it who are the ones that irritate me, if you cant detect a difference fine but don't tell me that I or someone else cant.

I am about half blind in one eye and can barely see out of the other one, I have a brother that has exceptional eyesight he can spot a car a half a mile away tell me the make model and what the people inside look like before I can make out whether it is even a car or a truck, just because I cant see it doesnt make it any less real to him or those who can.



REGARDS SNOW

I'm one of those who can't hear much if any difference in cables, and yes, I've listened. I have (had?) exceptionally good hearing and pitch, and I've been at this a long time, as a hobby and professionally. I'm a music lover first and foremost, and I want my systems to be the best they can be.

One thing I haven't done is cast aspersions on those who DO hear a difference and want to pursue that path. If they're happy, I'm happy. I can only assume we all have the same goal, to make the music we love sound even more wonderful. I'm secure enough in my knowledge and choices to not spend time worrying about what others choose to do.

The initial post of this thread shows one thing - some can hear a difference, and some cannot. I'd assume that all the participants in the test would identify as audiophiles, and I don't think we can suspend anyone's golden ear license based on their response to the test.

A thought on interconnects - I personally think that the RCA connector is the worst thing that ever happened to sound reproduction. I'd love to see a comparison of different quality RCA's using the same cabling - I'm confident the differences would be stark.

 

[RocknRum]

I'm one of those who can't hear much if any difference in cables, and yes, I've listened. I have (had?) exceptionally good hearing and pitch, and I've been at this a long time, as a hobby and professionally. I'm a music lover first and foremost, and I want my systems to be the best they can be.

One thing I haven't done is cast aspersions on those who DO hear a difference and want to pursue that path. If they're happy, I'm happy. I can only assume we all have the same goal, to make the music we love sound even more wonderful. I'm secure enough in my knowledge and choices to not spend time worrying about what others choose to do.

Well said and a proper attitude.:thmbsp:

 

[Snow]

I'm one of those who can't hear much if any difference in cables, and yes, I've listened. I have (had?) exceptionally good hearing and pitch, and I've been at this a long time, as a hobby and professionally. I'm a music lover first and foremost, and I want my systems to be the best they can be.

One thing I haven't done is cast aspersions on those who DO hear a difference and want to pursue that path. If they're happy, I'm happy. I can only assume we all have the same goal, to make the music we love sound even more wonderful. I'm secure enough in my knowledge and choices to not spend time worrying about what others choose to do.

The initial post of this thread shows one thing - some can hear a difference, and some cannot. I'd assume that all the participants in the test would identify as audiophiles, and I don't think we can suspend anyone's golden ear license based on their response to the test.

Fair enough, it being my stand that I hate being told what I cant hear because someone else cant, should hold true in reverse. My apologies to all if it seemed that what I wrote was interpreted as if you were not able to hear what I could you were not worthy or deemed as being less of an audiophile.



REGARDS SNOW

 

[JohnVF]

Fair enough, it being my stand that I hate being told what I cant hear because someone else cant, should hold true in reverse. My apologies to all if it seemed that what I wrote was interpreted as if you were not able to hear what I could you were not worthy or deemed as being less of an audiophile.



REGARDS SNOW

Much of it is probably a matter of interpretation. I still hold out hope for the night and day difference as I do believe that my ears are decent and my gear transparent. Until then, I'm happy with my "dusk to evening" differences , and do think they're worth exploring. And I really can't wait until I find the funds for a new preamp so that I can dig out my really nice XLR cables again. I spent most of my time playing with those only to have those differences trumped by another preamp that was far better than the one I had with balanced connections....yet the better one that I went with as unbalanced RCA.

 

[Mister Pig]

Well you would think so yes.... but the amount of people who swear that they cant hear "any"difference as you mentioned earlier is amazing, by me stating that if you truly are that hard of hearing or tone deaf that your money will be better spent elsewhere other than on audio items was meant as more of a hey I call BS than anything else.

I think in most cases that those claiming that all speaker cables sound the same is actually being that they simply haven't heard enough types of cables is far more likely than then them actually being hearing impaired which many do claim.

Virtually anyone can hear a difference between solid silver speaker cable and oxygen free copper whether that difference is something they like or are willing to spend the money on is another whole thing or whether the difference is too slight to justify the cost but they can almost certainly detect a difference.


It may have sounded like I was being a disruptive ass by saying that but hey it got people to thinking :yes:

I believe that anyone that has a love of audio regardless of whether they own mega buck gear or have the most basic system found at a yard sale or a thrift store has the right to be here because we share that passion.


I am in no way superior to anyone here because I have better hearing or own a nicer system, there will always be someone with better hearing and more money than I.

It is the ones that claim a difference does not exist because they cant detect it who are the ones that irritate me, if you cant detect a difference fine but don't tell me that I or someone else cant.

I am about half blind in one eye and can barely see out of the other one, I have a brother that has exceptional eyesight he can spot a car a half a mile away tell me the make model and what the people inside look like before I can make out whether it is even a car or a truck, just because I cant see it doesnt make it any less real to him or those who can.



REGARDS SNOW

So far I like this post the best, well reasoned and nice detailed explanations of why you think things are they way they are. Explains your position well.

Here is an odd experience with cables though. I built my first good hi fi system when I was about 20. It consisted of a Amber 17B pre-map, a restored Dynaco Stereo 70, Systemdeck IIX turntable and Sumiko Alchemist IIIS cartridge, Spica TC 50 speakers with the Servo Subwoofer. From today's standards that is a classic system that was long on sound quality for a reasonable price. I remember buying Kimber 4 TC speaker wire and thier KC1 interconnects for it. I couldn't hear any significant difference with those cables in place, matter of fact I don't believe I heard any difference at all. Certainly bit enough to justify the cost to a college kid who loved sound but had restricted finances.

So it appears that there is no magical price point or level of gear that is good enough to evaluate cables. Funny thing, I have a $500 Class D amplifier from TBI Audio in the house at the moment that i can hear differences on cables with. Are current production electronics better, or is it my skill as a listener?

Here is what I suspect, and its just the opinion of a simple pig mind you. I think the electronics of the 70's, 80's, and in some cases early 90's have far more of a distinct sound. Quite often this presentation is going to overwhelm what a wire can do in terms ot its own sonic contribution. Do remember that I believe that each cable alters the signal to one degree or another, as there is no perfect wire...at least at the price points I participate at. So it is quite easy to envision a scenario where cabling makes minimal to no difference. Especially here on AK. Which may or may not explain the stark differences between supporters and detractors of cabling on this site. Couple this phenomenon with each persons determination of value and what things should cost, and it has the recipe for a hot button topic.

So I understand both sides, even been on both sides. But in my current system cables do contribute a meaningful aspect of overall system performance, and I vote with my wallet by purchasing what I feel are good ones.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[Mister Pig]

I didn't mean to come off as defensive as I did. It's simply that I have explored cables to varying degrees. I have probably put well over $1000 into cables (many of which are balanced, waiting for another preamp someday) and have played with different ones. And while I like what I have, nothing that I've heard has impressed me to the degree that I'm just chomping at the bit to spend a fortune finding the "right" one, when I really like the sound that I already have. If I was hearing drastic changes from one cable to another, instead of the subtle (but admittedly important) differences, I'd be more apt to pursue it more than I have.

Part of me just gets tired of the constant need to upgrade things, and the constant pressure by others to suggest that "you're not done". I love my system right now, it is so much better than it was a year ago, and better than most systems, to my taste, that I hear while out. And none of the cables are basic, but they also aren't exotic.

I put silver binding post ties on my Harbeths, isn't that something?

Not to beat a dead horse, but I wanted to discuss one more thing about cables as tone controls, for I feel I have not properly expressed the point I wanted to get out. So I will try this one last time.

On a pre-amp or reciever, tone controls are going to boost or cut bass mids and highs. They allow us to make shading changes at these points, but do not do many other things.

Tone controls cannot create a lower noise floor, make the sound more transparent, affect the width and depth of the sound stage, allow for the extension of the sound in frequency extremes, sharpen and define dynamic contrasts between instruments, and there are a few other things that I missed.

Good quality cables, when properly matched to gear and system, have the capability of affecting some or even all of these things.

This is why I do not agree with cables as a tone control analogy. Yes respectable cables can and do affect those frequency areas, but they have the capability of doing much more.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[JohnVF]

One of the more noticeable changes regarding IC's for me were a pair of Nordost Blue Heaven RCA's what a sparkle in the highs especially for the money.



REGARDS SNOW

That's a good description of what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned them. That was a big difference but in some systems, it was just too much. The combination of the Nordost Blue Heaven and my Emm Labs CDSA into my old Marantz Reference/Levinson setup with Quad ESLs was just way too much of a good thing. But the same cables with the same CD player into the Klyne/Pass/Harbeth setup? Perfect, and quite neutral with a hint of added air on top. I either love or hate those cables depending on the context.

 

[terra1]

So far I like this post the best, well reasoned and nice detailed explanations of why you think things are they way they are. Explains your position well.

Here is an odd experience with cables though. I built my first good hi fi system when I was about 20. It consisted of a Amber 17B pre-map, a restored Dynaco Stereo 70, Systemdeck IIX turntable and Sumiko Alchemist IIIS cartridge, Spica TC 50 speakers with the Servo Subwoofer. From today's standards that is a classic system that was long on sound quality for a reasonable price. I remember buying Kimber 4 TC speaker wire and thier KC1 interconnects for it. I couldn't hear any significant difference with those cables in place, matter of fact I don't believe I heard any difference at all. Certainly bit enough to justify the cost to a college kid who loved sound but had restricted finances.

So it appears that there is no magical price point or level of gear that is good enough to evaluate cables. Funny thing, I have a $500 Class D amplifier from TBI Audio in the house at the moment that i can hear differences on cables with. Are current production electronics better, or is it my skill as a listener?

Here is what I suspect, and its just the opinion of a simple pig mind you. I think the electronics of the 70's, 80's, and in some cases early 90's have far more of a distinct sound. Quite often this presentation is going to overwhelm what a wire can do in terms ot its own sonic contribution. Do remember that I believe that each cable alters the signal to one degree or another, as there is no perfect wire...at least at the price points I participate at. So it is quite easy to envision a scenario where cabling makes minimal to no difference. Especially here on AK. Which may or may not explain the stark differences between supporters and detractors of cabling on this site. Couple this phenomenon with each persons determination of value and what things should cost, and it has the recipe for a hot button topic.

So I understand both sides, even been on both sides. But in my current system cables do contribute a meaningful aspect of overall system performance, and I vote with my wallet by purchasing what I feel are good ones.

Regards
Mister Pig

Before the Time of Forums and eBay and craigslist, I would buy new.

Upgrading was based on trying to tweak out any perceived weaknesses. It was trial and error for me. It was a hobby and natural to see what could be done to optimize it like any other hobby. You tried things, it was an adventure, it was the American Barnyard Spirit among certain animal species anyway. There were the Hot Rodders and there were the Cluckers.

At a certain point, wire and cable was the cheapest upgrade.

For most of my listening, the wire and cable I had sounded great on my system. But I noticed some distortion and lack of detail on two specific CDs.

So I tried different speaker cable. I finally found the harshness reduced and detail improved with Audioquest Type 4 Blue solid speaker cable. 80 ft at $2.50 a foot back in 1995. I had a large apartment and was thinking of using it for center front, and rear speakers. I finally just used it for the front.

I had gone through different Monster Cable that were the rage, even a white sheathed pair before the AQ made an improvement I could live with - sound and budget-wise.

If it weren't for those 2 CDs, I might have been quite happy without upgrading since most other media sounded great. In other words, I wouldn't have noticed a difference. It's just that I was focused on those damn 2 CDs.

This was before I understood that CDs could be badly mastered or understood synergy. I thought if I had bought a $2300 AV receiver and $1400 pair of speakers they should be "perfect."

So I can see where differences may or may not be heard for the majority of listening. I had a particular frame of reference and it was a very small sample that bothered me enough to pursue. Today, I have some hearing loss in my left ear. And I wouldn't be able to hear that detail on the problem CD at all without turning my right ear to it. [for reference: harshness on High Society soundtrack with Celeste Holm on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire and detail of that ratcheting sound on Manhattan Transfer tonin' CD track one, left channel.]

Today, I can have just as much impact changing out vintage components and speakers instead of cable and wire, since they are so cheap.

And I wouldn't think of more expensive interconnects and wire for some of my vintage, because a lot of vintage back panels are more fragile and wouldn't accommodate them without custom terminations if at all.