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Speaker suggestion for a difficult room

vintageadict

vintageadict

AK Subscriber
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So I am in a position to upgrade speakers and I am trying to make a good decision here. My room is far from ideal. I have to position the speakers on the long wall. I would love to do things different but it just won’t work as far as walking around and best utilizing the space. The room is 23’ long and 11’ wide at its narrowest point. That is where the speakers need to go unfortunately. They are currently 9’ apart and 8’ from the listening position but those chairs are up against the wall.

I have ADS L1290 speakers but they really need more room to shine. The JBL 100’s are just there for nostalgia and turning them on for party time on occasion. The problem I have is the highs and mids are just too forward and fatiguing with just the ADS running. My ears are getting more sensitive to that as I get older. Bass is good but of course it can get a little boomy due to the speaker placement.

I have done various treatments to the room and plan to do a few more.

I have several amps ranging from 225 wpc, 150, and 75. Pre is a CJ pV12, Vinyl is my medium of choice but I also stream a good bit. I have most of my gear in my signature.

I am ready to spend some time to find the best speaker for this room. Will buy new if needed. Any suggestions on speaker choice or the room would be appreciated.

I was about to buy some Legacy Classics but I stopped myself. I just don’t think they are right for this room. I added pictures so you can see the space. One area has a mostly glass bar and the other is open and leads to a stairwell.

Thanks to any that have some ideas. I’m thinking smaller speakers and maybe a small sub but a little stumped.
 
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Whoops. Music is important. I listen to Classic rock predominately. Also folk, bluegrass and some R&B. Not a big classical or jazz listener but on occasion. Fairly wide I know but my music tastes seem to be changing.
 
Well you suffer from some of the same problems I do. Your room is non symmetrical so the speaker for the left is not loaded the same way as the one on the right, The left should have a bit more medium low bass. The one on the right might sound a bit depressed with out any wall really to provide the same amount of room gain the left speaker enjoys. Another thing your speakers are spread to far appart making for a compromised phantom center presentation for soloists and compromised symphonic presentations. The easiest way out of this issue is to use Room Perfect electronic 1/12 octave equalization developed by Lyngdorf. Some of his stereo integrated amps had the feature. Mcintosh has a separate piece, MEN 220, you can add to your system . Both have suppled calibrated mics and cables. The units are computers and the generate a repeated test pulses contining all frequencies and you move the micro phone around until the units tell you they have at least 90% knowledge of your listening space. Then the processor corrects the sound and you will end up with both channels sounding the same. Then if you want to you can use your tone controls to modify the presentation as you normally would or if you have a PC you can go in manually and adjust or fine tune things to your liking.

I use parametric eq's with 10 filters for each channel of my HT system, because I just prefer a bit of a different presentation. MY HT processor has Room Perfect which I can switch in or out and then add the parametric Eq's instead.

The stereo system uses 1/3 octave equalization and as I have a real time spectrum analyzer to calibrate the system the way I want it. +3 db at 20 HZ flat at 60 hz to 4000 Hz with a 4 db roll off at 20,000 HZ. I can return the system to flat with a minor adjustment of my tone controls or program EQ if I want. The main thing is to have the channels balanced in gain and frequency presentation. Now if you really want to control the presentation, you want line arrays. Because they keep the sound off the floor side walls and ceiling. Those reflections can really color the sound and modify the clarity of the sound. You can control the center intensity by how you aim the speakers. If there were multiple people listening Magneplanars by having a back wave you can make the center image wider more easily, but for the highest definition you want Infinity or Mcintosh line arrays with no back wave. But you IMG_4038.jpeg will still need electronic equalization because of your non symmetrical room.. I would move your two listening position closer together so you can more tightly focus your speakers to increase the definition. I guess you could wall up behind the right speaker like the left. But then you would have a cavity behind the right speaker coloring the sound even more than it is currently.
 
vintageadict said:
View attachment 3051141View attachment 3051142View attachment 3051143
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That is a difficult room, a very difficult one actually. What I would do, is move the speakers inward maybe a foot or so. I would build small partitions that are a bit taller than the speakers and perhaps 3 feet deep. I would place these partitions where the speakers now stand. This way, the reflexive distance of the speakers is virtually the same (which would improve the sound. In addition I would point them nearly straight forward; this should expand the sound-stage. While this is a difficult room, it is a beautiful one. :)
 
That looks like a tough room for sure.
I think you were on the right track with subs and smaller speakers. That gives you more control of over all sound. Being that close to most any speaker might make it sound too mid heavy.
You could always try adding an EQ to the system and cut some mids. Worked for me in one of my systems.

Moving those chairs together to center up your listening position should definitely help. Move the album storage from the back wall over where that second chair was.
 
Thank you Twiii. I’ll need to unpack that a little bit since I have been purely analog with exception of my streamer. Considering the difficulty of my room it makes sense. Really appreciate you taking the time to write that up.
 
Old-School said:
That looks like a tough room for sure.
I think you were on the right track with subs and smaller speakers. That gives you more control of over all sound. Being that close to most any speaker might make it sound too mid heavy.
You could always try adding an EQ to the system and cut some mids. Worked for me in one of my systems.

Moving those chairs together to center up your listening position should definitely help. Move the album storage from the back wall over where that second chair was.
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I’m open to changing some things for sure. I’ve been running speaker wires around tying to figure it out. I’ll give that a shot. Thanks!
 
So far consensus is to work on room treatments, placement and equalization. That is a good call and where I was already headed. I’ll research the electronics and already have some plans for treatments and experimenting with repositioning. Once I get that right I’ll move to the speakers.
 
vintageadict said:
So far consensus is to work on room treatments, placement and equalization. That is a good call and where I was already headed. I’ll research the electronics and already have some plans for treatments and experimenting with repositioning. Once I get that right I’ll move to the speakers.
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Much can be accomplished this way. (To parrot others:) Pull those speakers together more. 2:1 is the old rule, half the listening distance for the width, and put something on the back wall. Being in the middle of a wide room means side reflections are minimal buuut you may want to toe them in if the sweet spot is lacking.

This assumes you do your listening seated, not puttering around.

Another thought, if you wanted to go totally different, bookend your rack with the record shelves, move the chairs closer together, and put some larger bookshelf speakers atop the records. Like boleros or ar/klh sealed, something that goes horizontal.
 
It may be difficult but that is a beautiful room!

Have you considered dipoles or omnidirectional speakers? Unlike me you have lots of room. ESS AMTs and Ohm omnis (e.g. model F) sound fantastic from the front and add a certain spark to the soundstage from the reflections. Bose 901s might also be interesting. There are lots of others as well but those are ones the I've heard and like.

It looks fairly non-reverberant between the furniture and your treatments. Maybe add a little dampening to walls behind the speakers?

As said above, it looks like neither chair is in the sweet spot. That might be a change that's easy if you are sitting and listening a lot. Move the chairs and more toe.

If you are getting shrill highs or boomy bass, that can be easily tweaked with an equalizer or DSP.

For one of my systems I have a difficult room also, and not enough space for floor speakers. I've optimized EQ but the reflections and resonances differ with listening position, and I don't always sit in one spot to listen. So I live with it.
 
I have some wall treatments coming in for the wall behind the speakers and components. I’ll reposition the speakers and see if having them closer together will help. Listened with friends until late last night. They loved it of course. I guess I am pretty picky or just crazy, lol.

All the replies have been really helpful. Thanks to all!
 
If I were trying to put speakers there, I would look for some of the Ohm Walsh speakers. The Walsh 2 was a good deal when they were new (and was, I believe, the most popular speaker Ohm ever made). I don't know about the new models, but I would imagine that they are similar in their characteristics, as they are similar in design.

They are not true omnidirectional speakers (other than the Ohm A and Ohm F, which would by now have had to be rebuilt to work right), but sound good in a wide range of locations.

Of course, nothing will be perfect in an imperfect room.
 
C Hart said:
ESS AMTs and Ohm omnis (e.g. model F)
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OP is sitting as far from the speakers as they are from each other, maybe even a bit less. I agree that an OHM Walsh series speaker could work here but with compromise, given the ratios and the different surface loading.
 
I have never seen or heard the Ohm Walsh series. I'll see if I can find any and listen to them. I am in the process of researching some of the popular bookshelf speakers such as Dynaudio, ATC and others of similar ilk. Miss the days of walking into a local Stereo shop to listen. Best I have here is Best Buy or a 2-2.5 hour drive to Atlanta or Charlotte. Not happening during Christmas.

I am working on some additional room treatments.. Also repositioned chairs and moved the speakers a little closer together. Some positive results so far. Thanks again for the suggestions.
 
vintageadict said:
I have never seen or heard the Ohm Walsh series. I'll see if I can find any and listen to them. ...
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Here you can read a review that gives a good description of what they are:

Ohm Walsh 2 Speaker System Review price specs - Hi-Fi Classic

www.hifi-classic.net www.hifi-classic.net

I believe that all of the Ohm Walsh speakers made since the Walsh 2 use basically the same concept as the Walsh 2, with the Walsh driver being supplemented with a dome tweeter (I think later ones are metal dome tweeters, instead of the soft dome tweeter in the original version of the Walsh 2) and have the sound blocked toward the back of the speaker and to the outer sides (so that they can be placed closer to walls without having problematic reflections).

Sometime during the manufacture of the Walsh 2, Ohm seems to have switched to a foam surround on the Walsh driver, whereas the original ones seemed to not have surrounds that deteriorate (my brother has a pair that seem to work fine, from the early 1980's). They also seem to have changed the tweeter during production; the early ones, like the ones my brother has, specified an upper frequency of only 17kHz, which is reflected in the claim on the Ohm website here:


ohmspeaker.com

Ohm Walsh 2

The Walsh 2 is the all-time, most popular Walsh speaker. It received over a dozen positive reviews including being named ''Speaker of the Year''. The New York Times…
ohmspeaker.com ohmspeaker.com


But if you look at a brochure that came out later, they specify them going up to 20kHz:



There is also a drawing in there showing you what is in the "can" at the top of the speakers.


I have not heard the later Walsh 2 speakers, and so I have nothing to say about them, but I can say that there was no subjective problem with the treble in the Walsh 2 speakers that my brother has, that were specified to be something like 42-17kHz +/-3dB.

The Ohm Walsh 2 was the first of the Ohm Walsh speakers to not be a pure Walsh design. The earlier ones were the Ohm A and the Ohm F, both of which were omnidirectional and were just a single Walsh driver. With the success of the Walsh 2, they came out with bigger ones similar to it, the Walsh 3, Walsh 4, and Walsh 5, and with a smaller one, the Walsh 1. After that, they came out with newer models replacing these.


There is another company making Walsh speakers, which are quite different from the current Ohm Walsh speakers. German Physiks is making some where the Walsh driver handles the upper frequencies but not the deep bass, and are omnidirectional speakers (which I don't think would work right in your placement), but I mention this because there is interest in the Walsh concept now that the patent has expired. The German Physiks speakers are expensive; I believe their "budget" speaker is about $15,000 and they go up to over $100,000. The prices on these speakers may help explain why this concept is not more common; the current budget model from Ohm is $1350 each plus $100 shipping in the U.S. (not Alaska or Hawaii; those cost more), so only people with a decent budget are buying new Walsh speakers, as the minimum for a pair is $2900. Obviously, used models go for a lot less.


Of course, none of this is telling you whether you would like the sound or not. I would look on Craigslist and such places to see if any used ones are for sale in your area, and go audition them, if the seller is okay with you coming with that in mind, with you not necessarily wanting to buy them. If I were selling a pair of them, I would be fine with that, as there is a decent chance you will like them and want to buy them. But if I had a pair of the Walsh 2 speakers like my brother's, I would not be selling them.
 
HHR (Dale Harder) makes Ohm A and Ohm F copies that are custom builds and also rebuilds the classic drivers. They are expensive. I haven't heard them but some reviewers raved. The Walsh series use conventional drivers with some special baffles and cabinets that produce an omni effect. I have also not heard them. I suspect all of the above sound excellent however.
 
I don't know much but I would first try this, it's free. Toe the speakers in 15-20 degrees and see if that makes a difference in soundstage and dispersion which should effect the response you hear. Worth a shot. You have treatment in the room but you're bouncing off the opposite wall and reflections could cause cancellations.
 
How wonderfully non-cuboid!

Instinctively, I would try one centrally-located chair out far enough from the rear wall so that you could stand behind it, plus pulling the speakers out from the wall about a foot or so, then moving them closer to each other if needed. Yes, it would be quasi-nearfield, but that's what I'd try. Maybe also try some absorption on the wall behind the left speaker, if you sense a bothersome difference in their presentation.

In one of the only rapid-switching A-B-C-D listening tests that I've done, I noticed a tremendous difference in perceived tonality between my digital sources, all playing the same CD-res 16/44 bits (Fleetwood Mac Tusk):
Marantz SA15-S2 SACD player - darkest, closest to my vinyl
Dragonfly 1.2 DAC - a bit brighter
Musical Fidelity V-90 DAC - quite a bit brighter
Rega Saturn CD player - blindingly bright

My hunch would be to suspect the Cambridge of being a brightness culprit, but as I've never heard any, that may be unfair. Or not.

For speakers, I would listen to some Harbeths, if possible. They don't sound particularly "impressive", unless "natural" is what impresses you. Any small speakers will need subs, in that room I would think, and I would run two in true stereo, if you go that way.

The Harbeth recommendation is in lieu of 'stats, you understand. :biggrin:
 
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