SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
Here's a chart that actually contains some useful and objective data courtesy of Peavey Electronics.
DF degrades with wire length. DF is a measure of cone control.
speaker wire - does type of speaker wire make a difference?
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DF degrades with wire length. DF is a measure of cone control.
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Damping factor degrades with increasing series resistance in the load, wire length is only a part of the equation. Damping factor is the ratio of amplifier output impedance to total load impedance.
The chart i posted above gives the resistance for a single copper conductor according to length/ga. Most speaker wires that i'm familiar with use 2 conductors to complete a circuit so the resistance values need to be doubled for a pair(2 conductors) of any given length.
Zonker92, thanks for posting that useful chart. If it came from this source,
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable
the author there makes the point that not all speakers rated at 8 Ohms are at 8 Ohms throughout the frequency range, and that the wire gauge should be chosen for the lowest value in the impedance curve. I think manufacturers take this into account when they give recommendations in their owner's manuals. For example, I have two pair of speakers from the same manufacturer, both rated at "4-8 ohms," yet the suggestion for one is to use 18 gauge up to 20 feet, 16 gauge up to 30 feet, and 14 gauge up to 50 feet, while for the other the recommendation is 18 gauge up to 30 feet, 16 gauge up to 45 feet, and 14 gauge up to 75 feet. These recommendations are based on keeping frequency response deviations to plus or minus 0.5 dB.
After many years, I've standardized on just getting 16 gauge zipcord. It's light, flexible, easy to work with, and suitable for just about any reasonable length with any reasonable speaker.
The OP's owner's manual indicates that his speakers should be good with 16 gauge wire for lengths well beyond 30 feet.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable
the author there makes the point that not all speakers rated at 8 Ohms are at 8 Ohms throughout the frequency range, and that the wire gauge should be chosen for the lowest value in the impedance curve. I think manufacturers take this into account when they give recommendations in their owner's manuals. For example, I have two pair of speakers from the same manufacturer, both rated at "4-8 ohms," yet the suggestion for one is to use 18 gauge up to 20 feet, 16 gauge up to 30 feet, and 14 gauge up to 50 feet, while for the other the recommendation is 18 gauge up to 30 feet, 16 gauge up to 45 feet, and 14 gauge up to 75 feet. These recommendations are based on keeping frequency response deviations to plus or minus 0.5 dB.
After many years, I've standardized on just getting 16 gauge zipcord. It's light, flexible, easy to work with, and suitable for just about any reasonable length with any reasonable speaker.
The OP's owner's manual indicates that his speakers should be good with 16 gauge wire for lengths well beyond 30 feet.
VolvoHeretic
Well-Known Member
Just how many feet and what gauge wire is in your typical inductor?
Man all you people spend all these hours and days putting together the best system you can find, trading up, swapping out, hiding gear from the wife, figuring out ways to keep the cats off the TT's and the best you can do is lamp cord!
Real Audiophiles would never be caught with lamp cord running to their speakers.
Real Audiophiles would never be caught with lamp cord running to their speakers.
amason3
Well-Known Member
Copper is copper. Size definitely matters. However, that being said, as long as the insulation prevents oxidation, then pay for whatever name or pretty coating you feel you need. Certain cheap insulators (i forget the type of plastic) do not prevent, and in some cases promote oxidation. That is what leads to degradation in sound (b/c of increased resistance). I'm totally against paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for speaker wire and interconnects, but there is a difference in quality (or at least quality control) to a point. There is certainly cheap, well made 16 ga copper strand wire out there to be had. Open up your speakers and see what they are using inside.....it definitely isn't wire that costs 10's or 100's of dollars a foot.
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
Man all you people spend all these hours and days putting together the best system you can find, trading up, swapping out, hiding gear from the wife, figuring out ways to keep the cats off the TT's and the best you can do is lamp cord!
Real Audiophiles would never be caught with lamp cord running to their speakers.
I'm not an "Real Audiophile". I'm not even a fake audiophile. Worst label ever.
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
Ah yes, insulation that prevents copper from turning green is very important.
pete_mac
Super Member
IME there are differences in speaker cables (and interconnects, power cables etc).
Different wire gauges, different dielectrics, different geometries, copper vs silver plated copper vs pure silver etc. Different cables have different inductance, capacitance and resistance measurements, so despite the good old 'copper is copper' rebuttal, there are tangible differences in how cables measure which influence how they sound.
I've experimented, listened, experimented some more, and made my cable choices accordingly. As always, YMMV and each to their own. I know how passionately anti-cable many people are. I was once in that camp until I experimented myself
Different wire gauges, different dielectrics, different geometries, copper vs silver plated copper vs pure silver etc. Different cables have different inductance, capacitance and resistance measurements, so despite the good old 'copper is copper' rebuttal, there are tangible differences in how cables measure which influence how they sound.
I've experimented, listened, experimented some more, and made my cable choices accordingly. As always, YMMV and each to their own. I know how passionately anti-cable many people are. I was once in that camp until I experimented myself
If I recall you have an above average sound system and with over 11 thousand post on just one audio website, I would think that might meet the definition of an audiophile. To be an audiophile by definition doesn't mean you have to have a 50 thousand dollar system.
"An audiophile is a person with a strong interest in high-quality sound (usually music) reproduction".
au·di·o·phile (ôd--fl)
n.
A person having an ardent interest in stereo or high-fidelity sound reproduction.
I wasn't really serious about the lamp cord, but I would think that the majority of people use a bit better than that.
vga911s
Well-Known Member
100 % copper multistrand wire with moisture proof insulation. Beyond that then you will start to get into diffrent likes and dislikes from person to person as to wire brand, wire size, ect, ect. I have alwayes used 8 guage oxygen free 100% copper spkr wire. Not sure of the brand. it has served me well
And that's the crux of the issue, isn't it? Is there anything better than lamp cord? Various reviews, articles, manufacturer recommendations, etc., over the years seem to indicate that lamp cord is not outperformed by the more expensive alternatives, so there's really nothing "better" to buy.
Personally, I tend to buy what my amplifier and/or speaker manufacturer recommends. With Naim electronics, I used Naim wire; with a Linn system, I used Linn wire; with Audio by Van Alstine, I used his recommendation of buying low-cost wire and interconnects from a hardware store. It all worked well.
robgmn
Super Member
+1
If you are looking for straight, unfettered signal transmission, then good old multi-strand lamp cord of sufficient gauge is what you want.
As soon as you modify the signal (by altering the electrical properties of the wire - c/r/i), you alter the signal/sound.
When you alter the signal/sound in any way, "better" becomes entirely subjective (extreme analogy - one man's boom and sizzle is another man's dream system), but the fact of the matter is that delivering the purest signal possible is the right way (electrically speaking) to do it, and anything that doesn't do that is technically not "right".
Jon S
Super Member
who's to say that the lamp cord is the unaltered signal? That could be the one that is delivering an altered sound.
I have long believed that speaker cables were all hype... After listening to some, I have changed my mind and indeed, there are differences. But they are usually subtle to my ears. Some may have better bass definition or a better soundstage, but spending several hundred dollars for a speaker cable for a small improvement in sound is reaching the point of little returns. I can find a bigger return in investment in better gear.
charles 1973
Super Member
+1
Many years ago I bought some of that 12 gauge Monster cable, thinking it is going to sound great. Well yes it sounded great, so would 12 gauge Zipcord, the only difference is the Zipcord's insulation doesn't off gas the chemicals that turned my once proud, high quality Monster cables Green.
Since my amplifier can't read, it doesn't care whose name is on the jacket of speakers cables. What it does care about is Resistance. Standard 12 - 16 gauge Zipcord more than meets the needs for home stereo. I like the Terminated 12 gauge Blujeans Cables at under $80 a pair myself. Thier termination method is one of the best avaliable, and that is as important as the cables.
Lower Inductance Cables may indeed change the sound in very subtle ways. There's no secret to lowering Inductance. Braiding several pairs of insulated wires to form the cable is a popular method. This frequiently causes capacitance to rise sharply, Too much capacitance can cause an Amp to become unstable and fry in short order. If we don't go to far with this method, on short runs, say to 10' we may be safe. Kimber Kable offers one design for about $130/pair. Another option for some to reduce Inductance is Bi-wiring their speakers. This keeps the Inductance created by the woofer from interfering with the High Frequiencies, with the similier effect of the low inductance cables.
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robgmn
Super Member
If that wire does not impart any changes (or the least amount of change) to the signal, then yes, it is the ideal wire to move the A/C signal from point A to point B.
Of sufficient gauge, standard multi-strand zip-cord or lamp cord will move the signal with the least change (disregard unwanted interference from AC lines, nearby radio towers, oxidation of individual strands, etc.).
It's essentially straight-line delivery of the signal from amp to speaker.
Now, start changing the characteristics of the wire, and you are going to alter the signal that comes out of that wire.
This is why capacitors and chokes affect how a speaker sounds, and why some prefer one crossover as compared to another and why people choose to replace/upgrade any number of components within their equipment.
It is also why the nirvana of speaker design would be a single driver that can cover the full range of audible frequencies without distortion, beaming, etc. (anything in the path from amp to driver creates sonic difficulties).
When you alter that signal, you have moved away from the "straight path" which is what the speaker cable SHOULD be and have started to equalize the signal.
I didn't say this is a bad thing, but the sounds that result from it can ONLY be judged subjectively. From an engineering standpoint, it is not what it's supposed to be.
One listener may like that a $1500 cable rolls off the treble, another may like their $1500 cable that rolls off the bass.
Which $1500 cable is better?
Amps and speakers are (generally) not designed with the intent that anything other than the straightest/cleanest possible signal transmission be used between components (the designer's dream would be that the amp drive the speaker DIRECTLY with no wire needed. It's also why good amp designers work hard to minimize the signal paths throughout their circuits).
These are pretty basic concepts, but seem to get lost in the debates.
Glen B
Super Member
IMO, it depends on the level of system components, and their resolving capability. In my primary system, cables are Acoustic Zen OCC copper (approx 9 gauge), that cost me $2K for the pair. For my secondary and party systems, I use regular old 14 gauge OFC copper wire. I suspect you will do fine with something like the latter.
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