Spec vs. Elite
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restorer-john
Addicted Member
That's a tough one. There is no doubt the M series gear is technically way better in every respect and has the benefit of much newer components, but you cannot dismiss the sheer physical beauty of the spec gear. Not only that, the spec gear is easier to work on, due to the rather open and conventional layout internally. A spec preamp for instance is almost retro-tube like in its chassis layout- very early 70's, yet it was made mid 70's. The C90/1 preamp is a different monster- a horror to work on and probably the messiest inside of the M (elite/reference whatever) series inside. The preamp performs beautifully, but is no fun to operate in the dark as you cannot see anything. The power amp M90 is a work of art and blows the spec amps into the weeds for quality and performance. Some will try to defend their spec amps, but the M90 is demonstrably a superior unit. The C91a cassette deck beats a CTF1250 in all technical areas, but doesn't look as good. A TX9500II is a lovely analogue tuner and way easier to use than the F90/1 as they have those wretched up/down buttons. I love to spin a tuner wheel- even an encoded digital one just 'feels' better. The reference series has of course a matching CD player in the form of a PD71,91 or a newer one, but the spec does not. The spec series though can have a RT909 open reel that matches and that is a lovely bit of retro gear.
Really comes down to silver versus black, new classic versus old classic and dollars. Personally, I own both and the reference gear is way better, but I'll always get out some 10" reels and play with the RT909 when I want to impress someone with old gear.
Really comes down to silver versus black, new classic versus old classic and dollars. Personally, I own both and the reference gear is way better, but I'll always get out some 10" reels and play with the RT909 when I want to impress someone with old gear.
Chazzer
In Hordious Remissionous
Choice???????:scratch2: There is no choice!!!!
Get it all and use two rooms of your dwelling. One you can call the "Elite" room and the other the "Spec" room.:yes: My bedroom is allready the "Elite" room and as soon as I get the Spec stuff I will set it up in my living room
I've owned both and the SPEC gear is still here, and the "M" series gear is all gone. The final piece I had was the M-91 power amp and I was using that to power my Thiel CS3.6 speakers. It sounded pretty good with those Thiels, but when I took that out and replaced it with an EchoWars rebuilt SPEC 1/SPEC 2 combo, the Thiels opened up a whole heck of a lot more. The M-91 was sold shortly afterwards.
This is one of the things you have to consider when deciding to use an M-90 or M-91 vs a SPEC 2. What kind of speakers are you using? How much power do your speakers need to make them sing properly?
I own a pair of power hungry AR-9s and very power hungry Thiel CS3.6s, and to me, power-wise, the SPEC 2 blows away the M-90 and M-91 by a lot. It was no contest. When comparing the two amps, the SPEC powers those two pairs speakers with much less effort than the "M" series amp. Now I know the distortion on the "M" series amps are almost down to nothing, but I certainly couldn't tell the difference between my M-91 and my SPEC 2 as far as distortion goes. That might have to do with the new caps and resisters and such that EchoWars replaced in my SPEC equipment?
For me, after owning several of both systems, there are just way too many plusses with owning the SPEC 1/SPEC 2 sytems for me that the "M" series systems have all been sold off. Now don't get me wrong, the Pioneer "M" series equipment is fantastic, and if I didn't have the SPEC gear, I'd probably still have the "M" series gear, I liked it that much. But when I compared the two, the SPEC 2 out-powered and performed the M-91, so I went with that. Just my $.02.
Retro
This is one of the things you have to consider when deciding to use an M-90 or M-91 vs a SPEC 2. What kind of speakers are you using? How much power do your speakers need to make them sing properly?
I own a pair of power hungry AR-9s and very power hungry Thiel CS3.6s, and to me, power-wise, the SPEC 2 blows away the M-90 and M-91 by a lot. It was no contest. When comparing the two amps, the SPEC powers those two pairs speakers with much less effort than the "M" series amp. Now I know the distortion on the "M" series amps are almost down to nothing, but I certainly couldn't tell the difference between my M-91 and my SPEC 2 as far as distortion goes. That might have to do with the new caps and resisters and such that EchoWars replaced in my SPEC equipment?
For me, after owning several of both systems, there are just way too many plusses with owning the SPEC 1/SPEC 2 sytems for me that the "M" series systems have all been sold off. Now don't get me wrong, the Pioneer "M" series equipment is fantastic, and if I didn't have the SPEC gear, I'd probably still have the "M" series gear, I liked it that much. But when I compared the two, the SPEC 2 out-powered and performed the M-91, so I went with that. Just my $.02.
Retro
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I also own both a spec setup and an Elite Setup and you really can't go wrong with either. It boils down to do you like the classic silver gear or do you want the nice black urushi faced gear. :scratch2:
restorer-john
Addicted Member
mix em up together- it's all pioneer...:thmbsp:
restorer-john
Addicted Member
In terms of aesthetics and sheer usability, the SPEC gear is out in front. Sheer strength too- some of that gear ended up in road cases and still survived. Drop a urushi faced reference component and it won't survive whereas a SPEC piece will ask for more. (not that I would ever do it).
I am running a pair of legacy signature three's. these can dip down very low to the two ohm range. I currently have a mint condition spec system. It works perfectly, but, the wife really likes the look of my pd-65 cd player. She would love for a complete system that matches the M series gear. Can not afford both setups. Sooooo is it worth it to sell the spec and purchase the M series gear? Thats the issue
Once again, if youy have some inefficient speakers, the 20 series M-22 (30 watts per channel class A) and the M-25 (100 watts per channel class A) would be a nice choice, but they just don't have the power my speakers crave. I wouldn't mind having a complete system of all three (SPEC, Elite, and 20 series), but I've just settled on the SPEC systems for ease of maintenance, reliability, and sheer power. The looks ain't too bad either.
Retro
restorer-john
Addicted Member
The spec produces a bit more at 8 ohms, but the M90/1 beats it all the way down to 1 ohm by miles. Both good amps though.
The Thiel CS3.6 speakers are 4 ohm speakers, but during some musical transients, they will dip down to 2 ohms and below. When EchoWars benched tested the rebuilt SPEC 2 under 4 ohm dummy loads, it hit 430 watts per channel at clipping. Using the dummy loads at 8 ohms, it hit 340 watts per channel at clipping. So, as you can see, the 250 watts per channel rating that Pioneer gave the SPEC 2 was rather conservative.
And in answer to your question, yes, there is a huge power difference between the SPEC 2 and the M-91, with the SPEC 2 blowing the M-91 away.
Just my $.02
Retro
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John,
Contrary to what you have written here, I have to completely disagree (at least my hard-to-power 4 ohm speakers disagree). The Thiel CS3.6 and the AR-9 speakers I own "are" 4 ohm speakers and during some of the musical transients will dip down to 2 ohms and less. The SPEC 2 out powers the M-91 all the way down. I know, I have had the M-91 hooked up to both pairs of speakers, and there is no comparison, the SPEC 2 blows the M-91 out of the water. I wouldn't be saying this if I didn't live it. That's why I sold the M-91, it couldn't hold the SPEC 2's jockstrap......
I know what the written stats are between the 2 amps, but I guess that's the difference between "real" power and "dynamic" power.
Retro
restorer-john
Addicted Member
Fair enough, I never actually tested my spec 2 to full power as my dummy loads wouldn't take it at the time. I ABd the two however on my comparator and on my speakers, the M90 was a better amp to my ears. (that was Timewindow 1as, Sony SSg333es and Sony SSG7s) My dad now has the M90/C90s/F91 combo and I use two Sony TAN77es power amps bridged which make the SPEC seem underpowered- actually make almost anything seem underpowered (over 600watts at 8 and hit nearly 1kW at 4 per side). I stand by the ability to instantly AB high powered amps as the only way to determine their relative audible merits if measurements aren't convincing enough. Attached is a pic of my comparator. Listening to one, then reconnecting another proves absolutley nothing- you must be able to switch instantly. The internal relays are 15A break before make wired and can switch 10 pairs of speakers, 5 amplifiers, 5 turntables and 7 line sources. It sorts out the sheep from the goats really quickly. No amount of red wine, glossy panels or gold connectors fool the comparator. Ever wonder why you don't see them anymore? Picked it up for the mighty sum of $70AUD and at the time could have had another sansui one for $65AUD but thought, one comparator was enough- wish I bought them both now...
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restorer-john
Addicted Member
Problem is though a 'shootout' is an easy affair and over within a few seconds with a comparator- kinda takes the fun out of drinking half a bottle of red, playing heaps of different discs and poking around hooking up several amps in one evening and deciding they all have relaitve merits. The comparator is mean, sterile and brutal- takes no prisoners.
John,
Once again, I don't know the efficiency of the speakers you list above, but my test was relatively simple. I let my terribly inefficient 4 ohm speakers be the Judge and Jury. I would have to turn my M-91 up to 2 o'clock to do the same thing my SPEC 2 would do at 10 o'clock. Pretty simple.
Retro
Arkay
Lunatic Member
Retro, I don't doubt at all the truth of what you say. What I'm wondering is... since you mentioned the SPEC gear had benefitted from EW's magic toudh, was the M91 in as good a condition as the SPEC gear, or was it suffering from sllightly aging caps, etc...? [Of course the M91 isn't as old to begin with, but you understand what I mean.]
Hard to reconcile such adamantly differing opinions. I kind of "root for" the vintage silver, but appreciate good newer stuff, too. Even given that everyone "hears" differently, there sure seems to be two camps on this comparison. Would be nice to figure out why, and what (if any) "ultimate truth" is reliable here.
Oh, and that comparator might be "sterile", but I would LOVE to have one of those to route my gear through! :yes: Although the wiring would be a gordion-knot nightmare, it would make playing with (and playing) different systems/combinations 1000 percent easier!
Hard to reconcile such adamantly differing opinions. I kind of "root for" the vintage silver, but appreciate good newer stuff, too. Even given that everyone "hears" differently, there sure seems to be two camps on this comparison. Would be nice to figure out why, and what (if any) "ultimate truth" is reliable here.
Oh, and that comparator might be "sterile", but I would LOVE to have one of those to route my gear through! :yes: Although the wiring would be a gordion-knot nightmare, it would make playing with (and playing) different systems/combinations 1000 percent easier!
Not doubting that the Spec 2 has more power (it should) than the M-91 but preamp attenuator position may not be a good indicator. Input sensitivity of the amps may be different, which would give different amp outputs at the same amp input (preamp attenuator position).
I've heard neither but both appear to be well made units, as I've seen both with their hoods off.
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