Stanton 785LZE CARTRIDGE

[Mrtom]

I have new old stock 785LZE still in original packaging. I've had it fir well over 20 years and I would like to sell it. What would be an appropriate price to ask? Thank you.

 

[Stanton681EEES]

One more thing If you put it up on ebay . let the auction run it's coarse. To many times sellers have taken offers from a few particular buyers and sold out so to speak. I hope you don't take this as me telling you what to do as that isn't the intent of my reply. I'm just tired of stuff going to the same greedy people on ebay.
Thanks for letting me speak my mind.........

 

[Mrtom]

Thanks very much for all the responses. I have not asked this question before. What is "dollars and sense"?

 

[Decibel_116]

I have new old stock 785LZE still in original packaging. I've had it fir well over 20 years and I would like to sell it. What would be an appropriate price to ask? Thank you.

I hope the Pickering fans don't get upset for this posting, but I think Mrtom deserves to know what he has. It is apparent from reading some older threads about this particular cartridge, it is one of the rare and highly sought after Pickering cartridges. Being that there is not much information out there, I would be careful about putting this on the auction site with a low starting price. Most people simply will not know what it is being a lesser known (and very high end) cartridge and it likely will not command much of a premium. The buyer you are after to get the best price is a Pickering collector. You may want to consider listing it as "Buy it Now" fixed price with an option to let people submit "best offers". It is really difficult to establish a price for something so rare because the market for these is pretty limited (Pickering collectors). List the price too high and potential buyers (non-Pickering collector) will simply buy a newer high performance cartridge. These are in the range of a good low output moving coil cartridge. Those are normally in the $500 - 1000 range. People who have been reading your posting will be waiting and watching for your listing to show up. You may in fact already have a PM wanting to buy it "off the radar" so to speak. Collector's of Pickerings will want this one for sure. I would buy it myself if I was a Pickering/Stanton collector.

Anyway to answer your question, I would probably start out at $600 - 700 and see where the offers come in.

Cheers,
David

 

[Mrtom]

Thank you, David, for your helpful information. I've had this in my dresser drawer for at least 25 years. I knew all along I had something special but I had no idea how special it is.
I guess my next question is about my turntable. Not a question of value but of quality. It's been mothballed for a while but I'm thinking of putting it back into action since there's a lot of good vinyl available for very little cost. It is a fairly old AKAI model AP-Q50 direct drive 8w made in Japan. Worth keeping?

 

[Decibel_116]

The Akai AP-Q50 is a quartz-locked direct drive with auto-return turntable. Looks like it is a decent deck to me. If you were to compare it to a Technics SL-Q2, which has a similar feature set, I would put it slightly less in performance. The wow & flutter rating is OK, but the rumble is a little high for a direct drive at -70 dB (DIN B weighting). This compares with a -78 dB for the Technics. Still not bad, but not great either. Since you already have it, why not put it back into use and see how it sounds? I would try it before making any judgements. Not sure if I really answered your question.

David

 

[Mrtom]

It's going back into service! Thank you.

 

[ETI_5000]

The Stanton 785LZE (L designates low impedance or low output) is similar to the Pickering XLZ-3500E, and both are low output MM’s – they need either a MC input on your amplifier, a MC preamp, or a MC head amp or step-up transformer. Here are the brief edited specifications for that cartridge, with the main info:

Pickering XLZ-3500E
Stylus code D3500E, nude elliptical 5 x 18µm (0.2 x 0.7mil)
Output 0.06mV/cm/sec (low output, similar to an LOMC)
Tracking force 0.75 to 1.5g
Dynamic Compliance @10hz: 20µm/mN
Capacitive load recommended: up to 1000pF or higher
Resistive load recommended: 100 ohms or higher
Dynamic tip mass: 0.4mg
Tracking ability: 80 microns @ 1g (on DHFI No. 2 test record: DHFI = Deutsches Hi-Fi)
Frequency response: 20Hz – 30kHz (no limits given, so that’s pretty meaningless)

There were two Pickering upgrade styli (or cartridges):

D4500S (bonded Stereohedron tip, compliance 25µm/mN, tip mass 0.3mg, tracking ability 90 microns, tracking force 0.5-1.5g, 20Hz - 40kHz) - I've got two of these myself, one unused
D7500S (nude Stereohedron tip, compliance 30µm/mN, tip mass 0.2mg, tracking ability 100 microns, tracking force 0.5-1.5g, 20Hz - 50kHz). There's a review by Audio magazine in the vinylengine reviews section of the Stanton 980LZS (you have to log in to see where they are), which confirms that it would track at least 95 microns on that test record cleanly. Sadly the scan of the review they have is appalling, so the tested frequency response graph is unreadable.

Here are the (close) equivalent Stanton and Pickering versions:

Pickering XLZ/7500S – Stanton 980LZS (or calibrated version 981LZS)
Pickering XLZ/4500S – Stanton 885LZS
Pickering XLZ/3500E – Stanton 785LZE

There were also MkII versions of the stereohedron (line contact) stylus tip models, which had MkII stereohedron tips with slightly longer vertical stylus contact with the groove walls – 3 rather than 2.8mils. These were designated Pickering 7500 (or 4500) MkIIS or Stanton 980/981 (or 885) LZ IIS.

Of course, the Pickering and Stanton cartridge bodies across all these models were identical, and the styli could be interchanged.

 

[needforspeed]

The Stanton 785LZE (L designates low impedance or low output) is similar to the Pickering XLZ-3500E, and both are low output MM’s – they need either a MC input on your amplifier, a MC preamp, or a MC head amp or step-up transformer. Here are the brief edited specifications for that cartridge, with the main info:

Pickering XLZ-3500E
Stylus code D3500E, nude elliptical 5 x 18µm (0.2 x 0.7mil)
Output 0.06mV/cm/sec (low output, similar to an LOMC)
Tracking force 0.75 to 1.5g
Dynamic Compliance @10hz: 20µm/mN
Capacitive load recommended: up to 1000pF or higher
Resistive load recommended: 100 ohms or higher
Dynamic tip mass: 0.4mg
Tracking ability: 80 microns @ 1g (on DHFI No. 2 test record: DHFI = Deutsches Hi-Fi)
Frequency response: 20Hz – 30kHz (no limits given, so that’s pretty meaningless)

There were two Pickering upgrade styli (or cartridges):

D4500S (bonded Stereohedron tip, compliance 25µm/mN, tip mass 0.3mg, tracking ability 90 microns, tracking force 0.5-1.5g, 20Hz - 40kHz) - I've got two of these myself, one unused
D7500S (nude Stereohedron tip, compliance 30µm/mN, tip mass 0.2mg, tracking ability 100 microns, tracking force 0.5-1.5g, 20Hz - 50kHz). There's a review by Audio magazine in the vinylengine reviews section of the Stanton 980LZS (you have to log in to see where they are), which confirms that it would track at least 95 microns on that test record cleanly. Sadly the scan of the review they have is appalling, so the tested frequency response graph is unreadable.

Here are the (close) equivalent Stanton and Pickering versions:

Pickering XLZ/7500S – Stanton 980LZS (or calibrated version 981LZS)
Pickering XLZ/4500S – Stanton 885LZS
Pickering XLZ/3500E – Stanton 785LZE

There were also MkII versions of the stereohedron (line contact) stylus tip models, which had MkII stereohedron tips with slightly longer vertical stylus contact with the groove walls – 3 rather than 2.8mils. These were designated Pickering 7500 (or 4500) MkIIS or Stanton 980/981 (or 885) LZ IIS.

Of course, the Pickering and Stanton cartridge bodies across all these models were identical, and the styli could be interchanged.

As a user of these carts, That was awesome, Thanks. How do these stack up vs the XV-15/Jico Shibata, No complaints with it, But would'nt mind going the next step up. If there is one.

 

[MRL_Audio]

O...I'm just tired of stuff going to the same greedy people on ebay.
Thanks for letting me speak my mind.........

"speak my mind". We are all free to do that but how about the other side of this equation when the seller states what is mostly BS about condition, age etc. or packs like an infant and the package/turntable/tape deck, etc. arrives damaged or destroyed. I am tired of that stuff as well. Look at the multiple threads here about that. Caveat Emptor my friend. If the seller doesn't know what they have and sell it for too low of a price then they are lazy and did not research or seek answers like the OP did here. The OP made the smart move. The fact that some people get a good deal from someone selling is no issue at all for me. But like I said up front, we are all free to express opinions.

 

[JFRACE]

Who is vickers? I'd like to see if I can get two cases for the 7500 as I have 2 of these cartridges.

I'm in the middle with my opinion but feel as well the cartridge is not worth 500 or better. I'd say tops 300 if that but do feel that it would be more interesting for a collector and that may be looking for something like that.

Someone unknown to what it is would most likely bypass it just on pricing alone

Also stereo exchange sold 2 of those. one for 600 and the last for 700. his prices are somewhat high in my opinion but having said that I have purchased a few things from him. east coast pricing definitely differs than other areas. he does haggle a little on pricing from time to time.

 

[muovimies]

A word on NOS cartridges in general - The stylus suspension is a very important, perhaps even the most important, factor in how a cartridge sounds and depending on the materials used and the conditions of storage, a decades old cartridge might be unusable or like new, or anything in between. Just that the stylus still 'seems to work' doesn't mean the suspension is behaving like it was supposed to do, but as a buyer with no experience you wouldn't know if you're hearing the cartridge as it was supposed to sound, or hearing the effects of a detoriating suspension. Of course if you like how it sounds that doesn't matter and generally NOS cartridge / styli I've owned have been mostly fine. Some cartridges used compounds that didn't age well and those models are generally goners at this point. I think Stantons generally hold up well though. That said, personally I'd never pay prices close to similar quality "new new" cartridges for NOS ones, if buying NOS I expect a bit of a bargain considering the relative quality of the cartridge. I think most people feel the same, unless the cartridge in question is some sort of legendary model of unsurpassed performance or the buyer happens to be a collector hung up on some model. Then again there really aren't comparable low output MM cartridges available these days, so there's that.

I agree with needlestein both about the price and reasoning behind it + this topic belonging in dollars & sense. Maybe needlestein pretty much said it already, but considering the top model 980LZS can be still found NOS for around 500 euros, $600-700 for the 785LZE doesn't seem realistic by any stretch of the imagination. Half of that would be realistic if you're not in a hurry, $150-250 if you want to sell. Since there are no reliable baseline for such a rare model, these are just my personal estimations, based mainly on the availability of the XLZ-7500 body and the 980LZS. There are still NOS stereohedron styli available for around $200, so for $350-400 you could put together XLZ-7500 w/ a stereohedron stylus, which would be far superior combo to the 785LZE. Or $230 or so w/ an aftermarket line contact stylus, probably similar in sound quality to the 785LZE, the upside being it would be a line-contact, the downside it's a bonded stylus instead of a nude one like the originals.

If I were selling one, I'd either figure out a lowest price I'm willing to let it go for and use that as a starting price for an auction or put it up with a "buy it now" price on I would be very happy with and accept offers.

 

[Decibel_116]

As to questions of value, I don't feel I was low balling. The Pickering XLZ-3500E would be valuable to me for the body, but it seems I can get a body any time I want from Vickers for $150.


I guess I'm saying all of this because I feel an implication by Decibel 116 that somehow the initial commenters are shortchanging MrTom. Worse, that the purpose of the low balling is to set up a situation for myself to benefit by springing upon on a low priced auction.

But the fact is, it's unknown what the value is and the value is not easy to establish and I simply used similar items while talking briefly that it was rare and sought after. I did not see that the seller was seeking eBay auction strategy coaching, which again, I'm not sure is even allowed in "Turntables."

I see that I should have gone into more detail.

I said nothing about either you or the initial posters. I was strictly pointing out the Pickering/Stanton collectors, of which there are many on this site, would take a specific interest on a rare cartridge. I was not calling you out specifically and certainly DID NOT say you or the original posters would try to short change anyone. Based on your previous postings here and our previous interactions, I do not think you in particular would be someone to take advantage of anyone. I apparently touched a nerve. It was certainly not my intention. I was only trying to help the OP. I thought that is what this site was for. I will not apologize for at least making an attempt to do that. If I am incorrect about some of the information I provided, then I stand corrected. As I said in my posting, it was based on previous threads here on AK (which by the way had estimated the value as high as $1000 - which is ridiculous) and not from personal experience/knowledge. I agree this should be moved to Dollars and Sense.

David

 

[Decibel_116]

If I were selling one, I'd either figure out a lowest price I'm willing to let it go for and use that as a starting price for an auction or put it up with a "buy it now" price on I would be very happy with and accept offers.

That was my recommendation.

 

[ETI_5000]

How do these stack up vs the XV-15/Jico Shibata, No complaints with it, But would'nt mind going the next step up. If there is one.

Advantages (versus XV-15 Jico Shibata):

• Lower inductance means (like MC’s) they don’t change their higher frequency response (above approximately 5kHz) if capacitive loading is changed
• Much wider frequency response (related to the lower inductance). The review I mentioned showed a level of -5dB at 50kHz for the Stanton 980LZS
• Flatter frequency response at audio frequencies

Disadvantages:

• Much lower voltage output – about 0.3mV, versus 4.4mV, so a MC amplifier or step-up is needed
• Less were sold, since they were quite expensive when new, so finding replacement styli, either genuine or aftermarket, is harder. They can use the same styli as the ‘samarium cobalt’ magnet high inductance models (Pickering XSV or Stanton 8xx series), but although they did share the same styli as their high inductance brothers (e.g. Stanton HZS models), apparently styli from the 881S, for example, don’t give quite the right sound

There are probably some more I haven’t thought of! I can't tell you of any noticeable differences in sound myself, as I currently don't have a low inductance body, although that will (hopefully) change next year, when I may buy one to use my stylus on (it's currently being used in an 881S body). The extra gain required may introduce its own differences.

The low inductance models have a combination of some of the advantages of low output MC’s, with the advantage of replaceable styli, and (usually) lower cartridge mass, which is an advantage in tracking warps.

It has been discussed before on this forum that the ‘low’ inductance Pickering and Stanton models still have more inductance than typical low output MC’s, and that’s true. Their 1mH inductance is more like typical high output MC’s, although the 3 ohm resistance is similar to some LOMC’s. I assume that’s all to do with how the coils are wound, and the formers and wire used for the coils. Whether they sound as good as LOMC's is unknown.


.

 

[needforspeed]

Advantages (versus XV-15 Jico Shibata):

• Lower inductance means (like MC’s) they don’t change their higher frequency response (above approximately 5kHz) if capacitive loading is changed
• Much wider frequency response (related to the lower inductance). The review I mentioned showed a level of -5dB at 50kHz for the Stanton 980LZS
• Flatter frequency response at audio frequencies

Disadvantages:

• Much lower voltage output – about 0.3mV, versus 4.4mV, so a MC amplifier or step-up is needed
• Less were sold, since they were quite expensive when new, so finding replacement styli, either genuine or aftermarket, is harder. They can use the same styli as the ‘samarium cobalt’ magnet high inductance models (Pickering XSV or Stanton 8xx series), but although they did share the same styli as their high inductance brothers (e.g. Stanton HZS models), apparently styli from the 881S, for example, don’t give quite the right sound

There are probably some more I haven’t thought of! I can't tell you of any noticeable differences in sound myself, as I currently don't have a low inductance body, although that will (hopefully change next year, when I may buy one to use my stylus on (it's currently being used in an 881S body). The extra gain required may introduce its own differences.

The low inductance models have a combination of some of the advantages of low output MC’s, with the advantage of replaceable styli, and (usually) lower cartridge mass, which is an advantage in tracking warps.

It has been discussed before on this forum that the ‘low’ inductance Pickering and Stanton models still have more inductance than typical low output MC’s, and that’s true. Their 1mH inductance is more like typical high output MC’s, although the 3 ohm resistance is similar to some LOMC’s. I assume that’s all to do with how the coils are wound, and the formers and wire used for the coils. Whether they sound as good as LOMC's is unknown.


.

Thank you for the breakdown. I really need to study this line of carts. I priced some of those examples on ebay and Vickers(Thanks Needlestein), And there not cheap. As far as cart bodies mentioned, Will the Jico stylus be a good match? I know all cart styli more or less work on all bodies, But is it compatible, Does the stylus care what it's mounted on?

Guess the bottom line is, What is the next step or two up the ladder. I have an adjustable phono preamp, But with only a 6db boost, Which has been problematic with some LOMC's. Can go the SUT route, But have been putting that on hold.
Thanks, Robert