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Stereo: a conspiracy?

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Stereo sound is just as artificial as 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 8.2 or whatever the hell we're up to now.

A mixer has taken the individual sounds from a given performance (or series of sound inputs) and chosen, based on his or her experience or the desired sound end-product to place these sounds discretely or divided amongst two channels.

As such, stereo is no more (or less) false than more modern multi-channel recordings and productions. But it is...... manufactured.

But we like it.

Mono is just as manufactured, It is usually several different takes and layers of instruments blended together into a mix, each track gets EQ'ed and its volumes adjusted, usually some dynamic range compression is added to some of the tracks (usually drums) if not all, and it is then finally mastered to its delivery format. Even live recordings are subject to this kind of treatment.

Bottom line is, if you are not listening to a live unamplified musician in a dead space then you are hearing "manufactured music". Everything else has additional elements added to it; from the distortion on an electric guitar to reverb added on the mixing board and heck even the designed reverb in a good music hall.

If you like Mono listen to mono, if you prefer stereo listen to stereo, if you want multi-channel then go for it. There is no wrong way to enjoy music.
 
I think there's a conspiracy happening and no one is the wiser. Why do most people think that they have to have a STEREO system for their sound reproduction? I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and noticed that in real life, his voice came from a single source. I attended a party in a mansion where the sound from the chamber quartet playing in the parlor came as a single source. Is the idea of Hi-Fi the accurate true-to-life reproduction of music and speech? I'm not convinced that a STEREO system accomplishes this. In fact I believe stereo is a gimmick that tends more to color the sound than to enhance accurate reproduction.

Is it a conspiracy? ... On the part of the manufacturers to make handsome profits by leading their consumers to believe that they need two of everything?? Is stereo anything more than a auditory effect like a reverb unit? In real life, does anyone hear stereo in a normal (live) speech or music listening circumstance? When the "golden ears" speak of imaging and depth, are these terms relevant to a point source such as a single street musician playing on the sidewalk?
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Discuss :)

If you're only listening to a single voice, then mono will do fine.

If you're listening to something that was originally spread out 'in front' of you, then you'll need multiple reproducers to simulate the sound stage. A band, or an orchestra, is not a single point source.

bs
 
I want 150+ channels!!!!! muwhahahahaaahaaa Sound Engineers' wet dream....or worst nightmare???? :scratch2:

wet dream, would be a tad harder to mix, but definitely doable...

if only there would exist such a system, let alone medium to store it on, available for the people...

as for the nightmare, with a bigger concert, they get 100+ channels input anyway, and they then have to mix it to 2 speakers...

as far as the "stereo conspiracy" goes: if you have a room, with 3 musicians in it, a guitar player on the left, drums/percussion on the right, and a vocalist in the middle, how much sources do you hear? unless the distance you're standing at is more than twice the distance between the left & right musician, you can easily (without any problems at all), locate them with your ears alone, this too goes at greater distances, until reflections and such in the room, or soundwaves "broadening out" (don't know correct description), make it sound as a single point source. In this retrospect, stereo provides "stereophonic" imaging, meaning left & right, and a soundstage in between that, and on good recordings (with good phase, depth,...), you even get the impression that the soundstage goes further than the left & right speaker (due to phasing).

A good (and I do mention GOOD), mono setup, can provide excellent depth, but no imaging from left to right. So no image, the 3 musicians in the room would sound as if they were all at the same place, standing either behind each other, or, with bad recordings, all in the same place (unrealistic), this perceived depth largely has to do with the mic quality & position. A mono microphone, with sound coming from the 3 musicians, placed in front of the middle source (the vocalist), placed not to close, the sound from the vocalist reaches the mic first, and the sound from the guitar & drums reach it later, because there is a greater distance between the mic and the source than with the mic and the vocalist. This creates depth. If all three distances would be different, you'd get each source as if it was placed behind each other. A bad mic cannot "spot" these differences in distance. A bad room, or a too dead sounding room can cause the lack of depth too.

Here mono does have the advantage of having the edge in depth perception, although, with a good stereo setup, with carefully positioned speakers, and good quality components (same goes for the mono setup, of course), depth is almost as good, if not even as mono systems.

As for 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 or more for music: many many many surround music recordings do it wrong. Where are you sitting when you're going to a concert? Where are you sitting when you are listening to some music played by a small band? you're in front of them. Behind you there are more people, room, whatever, but no more musicians. This is where much surround recordings "fail" in my humble opinion, they try to put us "right in the middle" of the stage, between the musicians. Not only is this never going to happen for most people, unless you're a musician in that particular band, it's not realistic neither. Our hearing works better for things coming from in front of us, things coming from behind are less well perceived.

So, again, in this retrospect, a "good" & realistic surround recording would have music coming from front L+R, and center, and "ambience", coming from behind. On concerts, this means, people, and "outside" noises, in venues, this can also include some reflections from music bouncing back at you from behind (mostly we don't like those in real life), so not so much of them on the recording, please. But then again, we're talking concerts here, not studio recorded music. Here, with "normal" music (with this I mean, played by a band with musicians playing actual instruments, etc, not the funky electronic stuff, in which case it can be 'cool' (read cool, not better per se) to have surround). you are not in the middle of the band. The band is still playing in front of you, like in real life, and there are no noises coming from the rear, unless it's a really really really big studio/venue, but still, not that much.

So, surround music, no thanks, having been on much stages so far, I'd much rather be down there with the public, listening to music coming from in front of me...

(not saying that surround is not cool, it is, it's actually pleasant too, sometimes, but realistic? no, and better than stereo? not at this time, and I won't see it happen for the next few years neither...)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.
 
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There may only one source of audio but this one source reflects off of every object around us and comes back to one ear at a time, and to capture that echo and still have it sound just like you were there, you would need to have more than one speaker. With only one speaker, you only get the sound from one place in your room, and it would have no dimension to the sound.

BTW sparky: we're up to 11.4 now :D
 
If you didn't have stereo, you couldn't listen to the Beatles properly.... Vocals in the right speaker, guitar in the left.. We know that's they way they stood on the stage.. :no:
 
came as a single source.

You asked for it...

Here is why we need two loudspeakers for proper sound reproduction:

Yes, when speaking one's voice originates from a "single source" as you call it - but secondary reflections (that makes rooms sound the way they sound - think bathroom and why its so reverberating) comes from the walls, ceiling, floor & furnishings. Having two ears we can pin-point locate the source by the difference in secondary reflections reaching our ears.

If we did not have stereo sound reproduction then we could not fully appreciate the full ambience of a concert hall - it would then simply be dull music and not a re-creation of a glorious event in time.

With our two ears we can discriminate between the time differences of different sound sources. This allows our brain to locate ourselves, through audio, in this colorful world.
 
Radiotubes: Why aren't you complaining about home theater and all it's phony directionality? Stereo sound has more than proven it's validity. Home theatre applied to music is a joke, just a way to get the gullible to buy all new gear, to revitalize a stagnant industry.

Phony directionality? So when something happens behind you in real life you don't hear it unless you're facing that specific direction?

I can just hear it "back in the good old days" of mono...."Stereo? Oh, that's a new gimmick to get us to buy more stuff. Mono sounds just fine and it's all anyone needs." ;)

Seems no matter how much things change, they still stay the same in many regards.
 
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If you think 5.1 is BS you need to read some theory. The name of the guy I was going to refer to eludes me at the moment. Someone?

I don't like how it's applied in a lot of productions but that is imo another topic than it's validity.
 
OK! the real truth (imo)! #1 We need stereo to balance the left side of our brain and our right side of our brains, right!!
Truth #2 -regarding home theater-- You only can listen to it if you are sitting still looking at a lousy movie! Remember when movies had good sound tracks?
Are these true? I don't know but I know what sounds I like.
 
Phony directionality? So when something happens behind you in real life you don't hear it unless you're facing that specific direction?

I can just hear it "back in the good old days" of mono...."Stereo? Oh, that's a new gimmick to get us to buy more stuff. Mono sounds just fine and it's all anyone needs." ;)

Seems no matter how much things change, they still stay the same in many regards.


True, true, and we now indeed have that with surround music recordings. And just like with stereo back then, surround recordings are "abused" now, they are, just like stereo back then, just trying to "maximize" the surround "experience", but they're ruining it while trying to do so. In the early days of stereo, we had a mono track in the left speaker, and another mono track in the right. which, back then, was spectacular, and new, but, indeed, just a gimmick. Just like the surround recordings now. Instruments coming from everywhere, guitar front left, percussion right, vocal center, base guitar surround left, "backing vocals" (quite litteraly) surround right, to put it in extreme terms... NOT good at all.
 
I think there's a conspiracy happening and no one is the wiser. Why do most people think that they have to have a STEREO system for their sound reproduction?
I disagree.

Do some listening in real life, and try to pay attention to how you can tell where sound comes from around you. Some people are better at this than others, maybe because they 'just are', maybe because of practice. I know that I'm better at it than any of my brothers. They just don't seem to hear like I do.

Your brain gets lot of information and cues from what you hear. At the very least, you can tell whether someone is in front of or behind you by sound. All kinds of little changes in timing, phasing, intensity and other factors are processed by your hearing to tell you a lot.

A stereo sound system tries to re-create that "field" in your hearing. I'm sure you'll get very different opinions on how effective this is...people are all over the map on this...with expensive equipment, vintage equipment, new stuff, cheap stuff, different speakers, even surround sound systems. The opinions on how best to do it are endless.

Does a stereo system necessarily accomplish making you think that you're hearing a live performance? Dunno. I've been pretty convinced a few times. I think a lot more depends upon the recording if you're reasonably well equipped on the playback end. And no, I don't think you have to spend crazy amounts of money to be well equipped on the sound reproduction front...invest some thought and time, definitely.

I am of the belief that the recording setup matters a lot. Good microphone placement around a live performance can sound incredible. Good mixing of a studio recording, including placement of the performers, can also sound incredible.

While sounds do come from single sources, they also bend and reflect. Think of echoes in a mostly empty room, or a time when you could have sworn that a sound was coming from a solid wall in front of you. And a single source can be positioned differently in a room.
 
I agree with those that stated that 2 channels are required to give your 2 ears the "image". We do hear in stereo, not 5.1, not 7.1, not 3.0. We have 2 ears, and they give us a 3D image like our 2 eyes give us a 3D image of the reality. With our eyes closed, we can know where a sound is located because of this 3D listening.

I think anyway that 2 channel stereo is a way to imitate the reality, capturing sounds in the way our ears do, and reproduce them later in the opposite way. The reality is, as it was said, something like "infinite channel" ....
 
When stereophonic (or 'binaural') recording and playback equipment was first introduced, the intent was to recreate a live music performance where the listener was seated as a member of the audience. The performers were always in front of the listener.

Stereo works fine for this. And it works fine for most movies, too.

However, the movie-making business has changed with regard to how it wishes to present the story you see and hear. There is a desire to immerse the viewer in the action, to make it seem more as if they were there. That does mean that bombs go off to the side of and behind you, bullets are heard in front and the strike of the bullets is heard to the rear. This cannot be reproduced in stereo - the soundstage is always in front of you, not to the sides or the rear.

That is why we have 5 channel, 5.1, 7.1 and all the rest. Not particularly useful for recordings which were originally in stereo, but for movies intended to be listened to as multi-channel surround.

Quadraphonic was an attempt to do something similar with music; to some extent it *was* a bit of a marketing gimmick; and it died out.

But yes, to reassert; stereo is better than monophonic, it is not a scam. Surround-sound is better than stereo for the things it was intended for.
 
First, Please let me thank all of you for participating in this discussion. There are some well thought, well considered opinions here. I was pleased to see some comments on binaural recordings as this was a good attempt to mimic what a listener was hearing.
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Radiotron Designers Handbook said:
An ILLUSION which gives a good sense of spacial reproduction can be applied to a room by means of two loudspeakers each fed from a separate microphone through separate amplifiers
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While STEREO may have a pleasing effect, I have rarely heard a reproduction that accurately resembles a live performance. Stereo may attempt to duplicate this, but falls short and is merely an ILLUSION. A good mono system can be set up in a larger venue with two loudspeakers placed far apart (or with an adjustable delay) to give a feeling of dimension ... a sort of pseudo-stereo effect.
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:tongue:
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One of the most remarkable auditory experiences I've had was sitting in the middle (a circle) of a brass ensemble with all musicians facing the center of the circle. They were playing a piece with broad dynamics I believe the tune was some part of the theme from the movie 'Superman'. The effect was simply amazing and unforgettable. I can't imagine any stereo or multi-channel equipment every being able to reproduce such an effect.
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I still tend towards conspiracy though. :D Perhaps a marketing ploy by the powers that be.
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Its interesting to note that no one particularly addressed the phrase "high fidelity" and what it truly means. I suppose in the end the topic becomes quite subjective and is really about what the listener enjoys weather it be a pleasing audible effect, or an attempt at realistic reproduction.
 
First, Please let me thank all of you for participating in this discussion. There are some well thought, well considered opinions here. I was pleased to see some comments on binaural recordings as this was a good attempt to mimic what a listener was hearing.
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While STEREO may have a pleasing effect, I have rarely heard a reproduction that accurately resembles a live performance. Stereo may attempt to duplicate this, but falls short and is merely an ILLUSION. A good mono system can be set up in a larger venue with two loudspeakers placed far apart (or with an adjustable delay) to give a feeling of dimension ... a sort of pseudo-stereo effect.
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:tongue:
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One of the most remarkable auditory experiences I've had was sitting in the middle (a circle) of a brass ensemble with all musicians facing the center of the circle. They were playing a piece with broad dynamics I believe the tune was some part of the theme from the movie 'Superman'. The effect was simply amazing and unforgettable. I can't imagine any stereo or multi-channel equipment every being able to reproduce such an effect.
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I still tend towards conspiracy though. :D Perhaps a marketing ploy by the powers that be.
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Its interesting to note that no one particularly addressed the phrase "high fidelity" and what it truly means. I suppose in the end the topic becomes quite subjective and is really about what the listener enjoys weather it be a pleasing audible effect, or an attempt at realistic reproduction.

It would seem you've never heard a properly set up "stereo" system.

Stereo is an attempt at realistic reproduction. Admittedly, so is mono. It just happens that stereo does a better job.

A good 5.1 or 7.1 system when properly set up and playing a well recorded selection can do a pretty good job of recreating the effect of listening to a circle of musicians from inside the circle.

I suggest you listen to some properly set up systems, both stereo and multichannel.

Are you really Phil Spector?:D I know he hates stereo. It ruiined his "wall of sound" sound.
 
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