Stylus battle: 681EE or D625E?

[basplin]

Hey guys,
I'm having a tough time finding a clear on answer on this. What stylus would you prefer if you had to choose one? I have a Stanton 681EEE cart looking for a new stylus, and the choice is a NOS Pickering D625E or a NOS Stanton/Phanstiehl 681EE (Phanstiehl packaging, says "Manufactured by Stanton Magnetics, Inc.")?

Which tracks better? Which sounds better? Which IS better? Thanks!

 

[basplin]

That's a great point about the record wear. How significant is the difference in wear between an elliptical stylus .2 x .7 and a conical one, maybe .4 x .7? Or an even bigger elliptical, .3 x .7?

I'm considering getting some conical ones to use as an alternative too, but I'm not sure if that's overkill.

Money is an issue, so I'm not sure I can afford to keep both Pickering and the Stanton (I just purchased both). I figure I keep the one I like the most and just retip it when it gets worn down, and sell the other to afford some conical ones for more casual listening. I had a D6800EL on my Stanton and thought it sounded incredible!

I'm also the kind of person that once I find something that I like, I'm content with it and don't need anything else. I don't really need variety, unless there's a good reason, like keeping wear down to a minimum.

 

[basplin]

Good info and good points. Thank you!

 

[Hifirob2]

I guess I have been living under a rock lately, because this is the first I've heard of a better stylus tip causing more record wear. I was under the assumption that the opposite was true.

I use .2 X .7 ellipticals and stereohedrons on my Stantons and Pickerings. I've noticed no record wear whatsoever. Am I slowly destroying my records chasing the best sound possible?

Help me out, Needlestein!

Nothing against the D625 stylus. It's a nice sounding .3 X .7 tip. I just prefer the sound of the stereohedrons...

 

[seminole54]

The D625E is the equivalent of the Stanton D680 and is a fine sounding stylus. It will be more forgiving of less than pristine used records than the D6800EE. As Needlestein said the cost of an appropriate re-tip to either in future dollars will be way more than what you have invested now. Depending on how often you used them and the care you take in cleaning and handling them you should get as much as five years out of the two of them. I also own the NOS conicals and don't in anyway prefer them. And no, none of the styli compare to the Stereohedrons especially in price.

 

[Blue Shadow]

That's a great point about the record wear. How significant is the difference in wear between an elliptical stylus .2 x .7 and a conical one, maybe .4 x .7? Or an even bigger elliptical, .3 x .7?

The conical stylus will have only one number since it is a round tip and that number is the single radius, frequently 0.7. All the numbers you list are two numbers use for the short and long radii for an ellipse...an elliptical stylus.

2x7 is approaching a fine line
3x7 is a standard size
4x7 is a fatter ellipse, and it probably won'd dig down in the groove the way the two above will

 

[Hifirob2]

I'm with you. I think if I live to be 500 years old, I still wouldn't wear out any of my records even if I played the same one every day.

Ain't that the truth. I still have all my records from over the years - including some that were played (carefully) on an old BSR changer in my YORX all-in-one.

They still sound great today. Even more so, now with a stereohedron stylus. It seems to ride a little differently in the groove, and the noise floor is much improved. Like playing a new record.

 

[Hifirob2]

The Stereohedrons do sound better. Now those are supposed to wear records out even less because they actually have a deeper contact point. Stereohedron II even more so. According to the sales literature and ads of the time, a Stereohedron (or any parabolic like microline, micro ridge, Shibata etc) is supposed to last two to three times as long and cause 1/2 to 1/3 the wear. The .2 x .7 elliptical is supposed to be the one you have to watch because supposedly as it wears, it takes on the shape of a chisel and begins to scrape your grooves clean.

Whether anyone actually observed any of this or whether it was all marketing mumbo jumbo to encourage upgrading from .2 x .7 to microline type, I can't say.

I do prefer the sound of nude .2 x .7 to bonded Stereohedron, myself. But it's darn close and I may just be loyal to my first love. I don't know.

Yep, sometimes, it's a tough call. I do love the D6800EEE - it may be the best value for the money, considering how expensive stereohedrons have become.

Not to go off topic (I apologize), but can you look at this thread:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=8757821#post8757821

It brings up a question I have about "what is the best stylus available for the 681EEE & XV-15 carts. (I know the styli are interchangeable)

I have a D1800-S for my XV-15s, and I'm under the impression that it's the only stereohedron sold for the XV-15s. The 681EEE's had the D6800EEE-S and later, the S-II, that replaced it.

But for the P-mount version of these carts, Stanton offered THREE different stereohedrons. The D73S, D74S, and the D75S. Why three? And which one matches up (spec wise) to the D1800-S, and the D6800EEE-S? Could the D75S be the "best" stereohedron for these carts? It doesn't get much attention, yet has amazing specs. Any thoughts?? I ask because I have one coming, and would like to know where it falls in the pecking order.

Thanks!

 

[pdm4606]

Record wear dust???

I use my Pickering 1200e and get a very light dust around the plastic stylus at the tip area. Is this vinyl dust? I think so. Not very much. Only noticed after several months of use playing anywhere from 2 to 10 LP's per day.
Same is true with my Ortofon TM 14 stylus.

Same with my 681 EEE.

Same with my RXT4.

Paul

 

[Hifirob2]

I use my Pickering 1200e and get a very light dust around the plastic stylus at the tip area. Is this vinyl dust? I think so. Not very much. Only noticed after several months of use playing anywhere from 2 to 10 LP's per day.
Same is true with my Ortofon TM 14 stylus.

Same with my 681 EEE.

Same with my RXT4.

Paul

That sounds like the normal dust accumulation from not properly cleaning your records before each play.

I clean each side before play, and never get dust around the stylus tip area. Then again, I've been accused of being super anal about record care.

 

[Hifirob2]

Can't help you there. I've never seen a D1800-S or a D75S. Since you have them, hopefully you also have the paperwork that was issued with them. Maybe you can help us out.

As for all the different levels of Stereohedron styli and uneven distribution between brands, I think this is all marketing. Pickering certainly had many more variations of Stereohedron styli and carts in the XSV Moving Magnet line as opposed to Stanton's sole 881 body. But the P Mount distribution of Stereohedron styli, far as I can tell, was pretty much even between Stanton and Pickering.

Questions like this probably led Richard Steinfeld to write his book. He and another forum member at Lencoheaven.net whose avatar is GP49 are the real experts. I only got into this when I tried to find nice aftermarket styli to put in my growing habit. But I'm late to this game. I only got started right around the time Stanton was going out of business.

Trouble is, I don't have the correct paperwork. The D75S just came in the mail, and only makes mention of the stylus size (.0003 X .0028) and output voltage (0.82 mV/cm/sec). It does not list the frequency response or the channel separation.

My D1800-S is in the little cube, and came with no spec sheet.

I remember coming across a spec sheet a while back that stated the frequency response of the D75S was 10-30K, but I can't prove it, because I didn't save it to my computer for future reference.

A brief search online led me to one thread on Lencoheaven's site, but with no facts. I found posts by GP49 that had info., but also posts from Richard himself that were vauge. I guess I need to buy the book.

A search on AK led me to many threads, but, again, no facts - only high praise for it.

The AK search also (painfully) reminded me of all the Stanton / Pickering experts on this site that seem to be in hibernation. Aside from you, no posts from any of the experts in months and months. Where has everyone gone??

And after a short listen to my new D75S, I can state that this is the nicest sounding stereohedron I've ever come across for the 681EEE / XV-15 series of carts. And I have a lot of stereohedrons.:yes:

Thanks for your help!

 

[ETI_5000]

Trouble is, I don't have the correct paperwork. The D75S just came in the mail, and only makes mention of the stylus size (.0003 X .0028) and output voltage (0.82 mV/cm/sec). It does not list the frequency response or the channel separation.

My D1800-S is in the little cube, and came with no spec sheet.

I remember coming across a spec sheet a while back that stated the frequency response of the D75S was 10-30K, but I can't prove it, because I didn't save it to my computer for future reference.

According to a hi-fi magazine list with specifications and prices of cartridges being sold in Australia in 1984, the specs for the XV-15 1800S were:

Frequency response: 10Hz – 30kHz (no dB limits given)
Channel separation: 35dB @ 1kHz, 25dB @ 10kHz (I suspect that the 10kHz separation was only supplied by the distributors because the magazine requested it for their list, as it wasn’t normally noted in Pickering spec sheets)
Tracking force: 0.5 – 1.5g (somehow I think 0.5g was more wishful thinking than a realistic option!)
Output: 4.4mV @ 1kHz, 5cm/sec record velocity

These were identical to the elliptical XV-15 1200E, by the way – the only differences in all the specs between them were the stylus shape and size.

From what the writer of the Stanton book said, the D75S was actually a stylus replacement for a private label Stanton cartridge. That was possibly something like a private-label Stanton 680EE-S, which was supplied to a turntable manufacturer, or maybe even a record or department store chain.

So it’s probably as hard to find out details about it as it is to find them about specific Shure-made Realistic-brand styli, other than it’s a Stereohedron stylus, which fits the Stanton 680/681 or the Pickering XV-15. The actual specific cartridge it was actually meant to fit is unknown. It should be a good quality stylus though, of similar quality to ones for the genuine cartridges.

 

[Hifirob2]

Thanks! Then the D1800-S has the same specs as the D75S, so that is good to know. The D73S and D74S didn't go as high as 30K Hz.

And from I could decipher in Richard's posts, it was for private label use, but it was top notch quality wise. Mine came mounted on a standard cart, but with no calibration sheet.

 

[VolvoHeretic]

O.T.; How do you know when your stylus needs replacing?

Edit: Holy crap! Just looked a OEM D6800EEE replacement stereohedron and it is (cough) $250.

 

[basplin]

Ok...so I received my Pickering D625 yesterday and I have to say I think it is much better than the 681EE. More much definition in the sound, a little clearer too.

Bear with me on this, but I'm confused about the weight. I know you are supposed to add a gram with the brush, but wouldn't that be adding too much weight to the stylus?
Why add a gram for the brush if you already balance out the tone arm at zero with the brush on? What are you compensating for?

 

[idlerwheel]

I've been reviewing the posts above. I thought that I'd make a couple of comments, maybe things to think about.

Concerning record wear vs. tip size, the type of music and records will make a difference in this, even the nationality of the pressings. As always, wide-range classical music is the most difficult, and the most prone to wear-out. My opinion is that a .2 x .7 mil tip is safe, but only at the lowest pressures. So, your arm really matters. Records that are cut "hot" will need more pressure, and thus, will not wear well. The sharper tracing radius will dig more into the vinyl groove walls.

The .3 x .7 has impressed me as a great all-day versatile listener that can do justice with difficult music.
My Stanton/Pickering Handbook readers send me feedback, and one, an acoustical musician, has praised the EEE Mk. III as being extremely close in sound to one of the Stereohedrons. The Mk. III is a latter-day Florida product, .3 x .7. Note that all the EEE have very high compliance: 30, so watch your arm matching.

There have been only two Stereohedron designs. They are advanced, compound-cut, patented shapes.

Allow me to counsel this: when selecting a stylus, don't look for the "best," but instead, match the tip profile to the kinds of music that you want to listen to. Example: Top 40 music tends to be so limited in its own "fi" that you can almost play it with a toothpick. A fat stylus will play worn records like this with reduced surface noise. We don't listen to test records or the Telarc 1812 Overture for fun. It can be very enjoyable to explore some of the "lesser" styli with our own real-world records.

Take very good care of your needles and you'll be able to get them re-tipped, with excellent results. Be very careful about who you allow to do this work: ensure that they respect these brands and have had good results when re-tipping Stanton/Pickering styli in the past.

Richard Steinfeld

 

[illinoisteve]

I just want to touch on a few different topics that have come up in the conversation:

Record Wear:
-- I think a stylus of whatever design will wear the record less if it is set at a VTF that has it tracking well, compared to one that isn't set right and slops around in the groove.
-- If you have a stable of good, interesting needles -- that you rotate from time to time in order to enjoy their different strengths -- you reduce the amount of wear on each of them, and thereby reduce the likelihood that any of them are worn enough to damage your record's grooves.
-- I think the only terribly worn records I have were played on really cheap equipment with very heavy tonearms and sapphire needles that were never replaced and were played on that equipment by people who only knew they loved those records.

DUST
-- There are some AK threads in which people new to vinyl begin playing brand new records and are alarmed by dust that appears. They did not know that new records need to be cleaned. They can have dust on them from their packaging materials. They can have traces of the compounds used to help the pressed records release from the metal masters. That residue can reveal itself as dust.

Dust from Record Damage:
-- Do check that the cantilever holding the needle isn't bent or twisted and that the needle looks straight up and down when viewed from the front. If the needle assembly is broken or defective, THAT could cause record damage. Also if the VTA (vertical tracking angle viewed from the side) is way off it could cause problems. This could happen if the cartridge isn't mounted right or something else is wrong in the setup.

 

[lini]

Rob: Anything else equal, a sharp elliptical would indeed have higher wear than a medium-sharp one. However, in practice "anything else equal" most usually isn't the case. For example, if you compare a medium-sharp ATN12XE or ATN120E to a sharp ATS13, ATN13 or ATN130E/132EP under the loupe, you'll see that the latter not only sports a tapered cantilever for (effective/equivalent) tip mass reduction, but also a smaller diamond of higher quality with rectangular instead of a round shank and much nicer looking and better polished "true elliptical" (instead of just a "pseudo-elliptical") tip, which already looks more like a FineLine/Vital. And, as has already been mentioned, the sharp elliptical variants often enough also are (even) more highly compliant to be used with (further) reduced tracking force...

So just looking at tip radii would be a bit like judging car performance by horsepower only, without also considering other important factors like weight et cetera.

And an additional comment: Main contact point height should be just the same for line contact tips, but the contact area is wider along the groove walls on the "vertical" axis. That's why I have a bit of a problem with people often claiming line contacts would ride deeper/lower, because in fact these just reach lower, but just at the same time also higher. At least most of the time, when the modulation doesn't become narrow enough to squeeze a less sharp conical or elliptical more upward in the groove, i.e. until pinch-effect occurs.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[idlerwheel]

Steve and Manfred: agreed.

We need to keep enough pressure on the stylus so that the diamond doesn't crash around between the groove walls, eating away little bits of plastic with every crash. The "hotter" a record is cut, the more pressure we need to keep the stylus firmly in contact with the groove walls. It's irresponsible to cut records this way, but that's the real world, especially in the United States.

It's probably too difficult for most of us to adjust the pressure for every record, so we should set the pressure for our worst-case (overmodulated) LP and leave it at that.

Richard Steinfeld

 

[illinoisteve]

. . .
It's probably too difficult for most of us to adjust the pressure for every record, so we should set the pressure for our worst-case (overmodulated) LP and leave it at that.

Richard Steinfeld

I suppose if there were only a few records in a person's collection that caused sibilance with a particular stylus without a particularly high VTF, he could keep the VTF at the level that worked for 99% of the collection, and then just bump it up for those unusually sizzling sides.