Stylus Debate. Grado/Shure

[richardkid2]

For the Grados, I was hoping to see some definitive microscopic results and commentary by now from you stylus shape gurus. I too have wondered what Special Grado Elliptical, Grado Type, Twin Tip and True Ellipisoid actually mean. Hopefully, we can see and hear something not long after the new year.

In the meantime, I will offer up this view of to me an unusual Grado stylus I recently acquired. It has a brown plate (grip) and two blue dots. I have no other information.

 

[marcmorin]

For the Grados, I was hoping to see some definitive microscopic results and commentary by now from you stylus shape gurus. I too have wondered what Special Grado Elliptical, Grado Type, Twin Tip and True Ellipisoid actually mean. Hopefully, we can see and hear something not long after the new year.

In the meantime, I will offer up this view of to me an unusual Grado stylus I recently acquired. It has a brown plate (grip) and two blue dots. I have no other information.

Beautiful photo of the "Special Grado Type" The tan plate with blue dots would be a MF1/S. The back cut clearly shows this to be hyperbolic, with a forward rake along the tracing faces. The twin tip is similar with the back cut being a little steeper in angle of which the 8MZ stylus is. The forward rake allows the tracing faces to be at a 92deg SRA when the cart is set with the body at 90deg.
Thanks for posting that. :thmbsp:

 

[richardkid2]

Thank you marcmorin for identifying my MF1/S and explaining the characteristics of the Special Grado Type.

I'm wondering if it would be well to start a thread to help identify the different Grado stylus shapes because of course this thread is advice regarding replacement stylus. I have a Blue1 with an 8MZ mounted on my Onkyo 1055F and I love it as a great all-arounder for jazz, classical, and rock, though I tend to favor A-T MM's for rock.

With regard to starting a new thread and my interest, I have looked closely at a friends Grado stylus and it too puzzles me. While similar to my MF1/S it is not the same. He bought it as a complete new-in-the-box Prestige Gold cartridge a few years back. Under a microscope the tip looks nothing like the Gold in DaveyW’s site. Interestingly enough my friend purchased another Gold and a Gold1 styli. Those two look alike and just like DaveyW’s. Thus, I have to believe others would agree that Grado stylus identification is difficult even with a microscope.

I did send a picture of it to Grado asking if it was their stylus and what type it was. They responded that it is “probably one of ours.” That’s it. Here are two pictures of my friend’s Grado black plate with two gold (or maybe yellow) dots. My friend has played it a good bit and recommended I buy a Grado Gold Prestige based on his experience with this stylus.

 

[marcmorin]

Thank you marcmorin for identifying my MF1/S and explaining the characteristics of the Special Grado Type.

I'm wondering if it would be well to start a thread to help identify the different Grado stylus shapes because of course this thread is advice regarding replacement stylus. I have a Blue1 with an 8MZ mounted on my Onkyo 1055F and I love it as a great all-arounder for jazz, classical, and rock, though I tend to favor A-T MM's for rock.

With regard to starting a new thread and my interest, I have looked closely at a friends Grado stylus and it too puzzles me. While similar to my MF1/S it is not the same. He bought it as a complete new-in-the-box Prestige Gold cartridge a few years back. Under a microscope the tip looks nothing like the Gold in DaveyW’s site. Interestingly enough my friend purchased another Gold and a Gold1 styli. Those two look alike and just like DaveyW’s. Thus, I have to believe others would agree that Grado stylus identification is difficult even with a microscope.

I did send a picture of it to Grado asking if it was their stylus and what type it was. They responded that it is “probably one of ours.” That’s it. Here are two pictures of my friend’s Grado black plate with two gold (or maybe yellow) dots. My friend has played it a good bit and recommended I buy a Grado Gold Prestige based on his experience with this stylus.

Glad you've been to DaveyW's website......a good majority of the Grados pictured were my samples. The Black, Black with paratrace diamond, and the Z+ were his, the Gold, 8MR, 8MZ, MCZ, and Sonata-1 are mine. ( Davey now owns the 8MR and the MCZ)
Back to these newer photos. As you can see the diamond is cut at a steeper angle than your MF1-S. This is the Twin Tip. Same cut as can be seen on the 8MR on Davey's site.
This is not a Gold stylus. Black plate with yellow or gold dots makes this a G1/S, or a Z-1/Z-2. Not to be confused with the Z1 / Z2. What leads me to this is the Black plate color was not used after the G series until some of the Z series and the Signature 8 and 10. Also, the lack of black damping material on the cantilever. The Prestige Gold cantilever is coated almost to the diamond. The G1/s is not. The Z1 and Z2 carts had a brown plate. the Z-1 and Z-2 were low output bodies like the MCZ body, and were priced above the 8MZ ( $280.00 vs $200.00) Although, unlike the Signature series, the Z-1 and Z-2 were not etched into the plate. A photo of the top of the plate where it sits up in the body will help date this stylus as well. But my best educated guess is this is a G1/S. I have one of them as well.
Thanks again for showing the styli cuts.

 

[beatcomber]

Old Joe Grado had a very interesting early career. Read his own words about it:
http://www.joegradosig.com/hifihistory.html

 

[richardkid2]

Glad you've been to DaveyW's website......a good majority of the Grados pictured were my samples. The Black, Black with paratrace diamond, and the Z+ were his, the Gold, 8MR, 8MZ, MCZ, and Sonata-1 are mine. ( Davey now owns the 8MR and the MCZ)
Back to these newer photos. As you can see the diamond is cut at a steeper angle than your MF1-S. This is the Twin Tip. Same cut as can be seen on the 8MR on Davey's site.
This is not a Gold stylus. Black plate with yellow or gold dots makes this a G1/S, or a Z-1/Z-2. Not to be confused with the Z1 / Z2. What leads me to this is the Black plate color was not used after the G series until some of the Z series and the Signature 8 and 10. Also, the lack of black damping material on the cantilever. The Prestige Gold cantilever is coated almost to the diamond. The G1/s is not. The Z1 and Z2 carts had a brown plate. the Z-1 and Z-2 were low output bodies like the MCZ body, and were priced above the 8MZ ( $280.00 vs $200.00) Although, unlike the Signature series, the Z-1 and Z-2 were not etched into the plate. A photo of the top of the plate where it sits up in the body will help date this stylus as well. But my best educated guess is this is a G1/S. I have one of them as well.
Thanks again for showing the styli cuts.

Thanks again marcmorin. Here is a picture of the exposed end of my friend's plate.

 

[marcmorin]

Thanks again marcmorin. Here is a picture of the exposed end of my friend's plate.

Yeah, no black puckey on the cantilever, and no etchings on that part.
Actually I wanted to see the other end of the stylus holder. Three fingers or two bumps? Still looks like a G1/S to me. The F1/S looks identical except it would have had blue dots.

 

[richardkid2]

Yeah, no black puckey on the cantilever, and no etchings on that part.
Actually I wanted to see the other end of the stylus holder. Three fingers or two bumps? Still looks like a G1/S to me. The F1/S looks identical except it would have had blue dots.

Sorry, here are a couple of the other end.

 

[marcmorin]

Sorry, here are a couple of the other end.

Yep, 3 fingers up there, definitely not a Gold. but from the late 70's with all the other cues and clues. Check the tracing faces closely for wear. Your friend got a deal if this came on a newer Gold Cartridge and there's no wear.
You'll notice also this is a tapered cantilever instead of the 4 piece segmented one with the gob of goo pucky about 1/4 up from the damping ring.

 

[richardkid2]

Yep, 3 fingers up there, definitely not a Gold. but from the late 70's with all the other cues and clues. Check the tracing faces closely for wear. Your friend got a deal if this came on a newer Gold Cartridge and there's no wear.
You'll notice also this is a tapered cantilever instead of the 4 piece segmented one with the gob of goo pucky about 1/4 up from the damping ring.

Very informative and clears up a good bit about Grados for me. To recap a little I take it my friend’s stylus is probably a G1+/S and while called a “Grado Type” in the Grado owner’s manual is actually a nude Twin Tip. Regarding the first example I offered, it is probably an MF1/S and while called a “Special Grado Elliptical” in the owner’s manual it is a nude elliptical with the other characteristics you have described. I do have another Grado stylus waiting to go under my microscope. It is a “two fingered” brown example with two yellow or gold dots which I now think might be an M1/S or M2/S. If again in a quandary, I beg an indulgence to be allowed to return. Gracias.

PS: Thank you also for the reminder to look for wear. I think I can see a pretty substantial wear “lens” on my MF1/S in the image I posted. The other side, inside of the working stylus, has no lens. Methinks maybe too much anti-skate by the prior owner.

 

[marcmorin]

Very informative and clears up a good bit about Grados for me. To recap a little I take it my friend’s stylus is probably a G1+/S and while called a “Grado Type” in the Grado owner’s manual is actually a nude Twin Tip. Regarding the first example I offered, it is probably an MF1/S and while called a “Special Grado Elliptical” in the owner’s manual it is a nude elliptical with the other characteristics you have described. I do have another Grado stylus waiting to go under my microscope. It is a “two fingered” brown example with two yellow or gold dots which I now think might be an M1/S or M2/S. If again in a quandary, I beg an indulgence to be allowed to return. Gracias.

PS: Thank you also for the reminder to look for wear. I think I can see a pretty substantial wear “lens” on my MF1/S in the image I posted. The other side, inside of the working stylus, has no lens. Methinks maybe too much anti-skate by the prior owner.

The G1+ is a twin tip. Sometimes the data sheet that comes with the carts gets "confused" as the G1,G2, M1, M2, etc all should have been the twin tip type. The data sheets that came with my M series carts all list the 1,2 styli as twin tip. The easiest way is through the photos you have to determine the cut.
your MF1 shows "special type" and the photo of the G1 shows "twin tip". In the 8MZ, MCZ, TLZ, XTZ all listed as "twin tip" as well.......umm no the MCZ, and TLZ are somewhat a hybred of twin-tip/ellipsiod, XTZ is the "grado true ellipsoid" found on the Wood body Reference. My Sonata-1 is listed as simply elliptical......um no it has a similar cut, although a little finer than found on my MCZ.
The wear on one side is probably a combination of too much antiskate, and poor arm bearings in the horizonal plane. I bet the previous owners albums are all etched away on one side too :yes: Shame really.

 

[Pio1980]

I think Grado lingo probably needs a translation, say, bi-radial for Grado twin Tip and hyper-elliptical for Special Grado Elliptical F.E.. Did Grado have a prorietary line contact profile?

 

[marcmorin]

I think Grado lingo probably needs a translation, say, bi-radial for Grado twin Tip and hyper-elliptical for Special Grado Elliptical F.E.. Did Grado have a prorietary line contact profile?

Umm....dunno. Bi-radial is simply an elliptical cut. The "special elliptical" and "twin tip" is hyperbolic in cut, some would say that's a line contact type stylus. Hyper-elliptical can simply be an elliptical cut diamond that started as a 3mll or 5mill conical cut front and back like the 7mill is to make the 4X7, 3X7, 2X7. To my knowlege, none of the "line contact" Grado styli are cut like the micro ridge or SAS. When viewed from the side those are straight line from top to bottom of the scanning area. The hyperbolic grado cuts are slighty arced along the scanning line. If you think about it, that reduces "camber error" of the scanning area as the cantilever moves up and down. "True ellipsoid" does the same as well keeping the maximum radius almost constant during skew when looked at from the front.

 

[Pio1980]

Some vendors offered lo-budget elliptical tips that were typically front/rear-'shaved' conicals with the same effective radius at the contact interface patch as the conical, where-as the true bi-radial elliptical grinds were indeed bi-radial with a narrower contact patch and finer tracing potential. Other than slightly reduced tip mass (insignificantly so with these shaved-off bulky bush-shanked conical stones) I don't know what the advantage of these faux elliptical tips would be other than promotional wordplay.