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Stylus Force Discrepency between Shure M97xE & M44-7

brucered

brucered

Well-Known Member
i am currently using a Shure M97xE as my main needle and a Shure M44-7 as my backup and used on older test records.

the balance weight and anti-skate are both set @ 1.75 so when i have my brush down, it tracks at the optimum 1.25g for the M97.

my question is when i set up my stylus force gauge to the M97 it shows 1.75g, but when i set it up on my M44 it is approx 1.5g. why the discrepancy if they are virtually the same weight and height etc and i am using identical headshells? is the .1g and .025mm playing into it that much?

the following specs are taken directly from Shure's site:

M97xE Net Weight 6.6 grams and Height 15.875 mm

M44-7 Net Weight 6.7 grams and Height 15.9 mm

anyone?
 
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Any manufactured product of reasonable quality will be made to specifications. However, there are allowable tolerances that accompany the specs. You may have two cartridges that meet specs and are within tolerances. Not knowing what the tolerances are for Shure cartridges, I can't say whether they're in or out of spec.
 
brucered said:
i am currently using a Shure M97xE as my main needle and a Shure M44-7 as my backup and used on older test records.

the balance weight and anti-skate are both set @ 1.75 so when i have my brush down, it tracks at the optimum 1.25g for the M97.

my question is when i set up my stylus force gauge to the M97 it shows 1.75g, but when i set it up on my M44 it is approx 1.5g. why the discrepancy if they are virtually the same weight and height etc and i am using identical headshells? is the .1g and .025mm playing into it that much?

the following specs are taken directly from Shure's site:

M97xE Net Weight 6.6 grams and Height 15.875 mm

M44-7 Net Weight 6.7 grams and Height 15.9 mm

anyone?
Click to expand...
Possibly some variation in the weight of the headshell. Is the hardware (screws, nuts, etc) identical? This is where those digital pocket jewelry scales come in handy. You can weight every component and see where the variation lies.
 
hakaplan said:
Possibly some variation in the weight of the headshell. Is the hardware (screws, nuts, etc) identical? This is where those digital pocket jewelry scales come in handy. You can weight every component and see where the variation lies.
Click to expand...


i'll try that and see what it is. the headshells are identical, both TECHNICS, but the mounting hardware is most likely different. and i guess we are talking fractions of grams so it might be that.

i guess i won't be straight swapping them anymore without changing the balance weight and anti-skate.
 
My two headshells appear identical, but a differnce in weight. And with identical cartridges, I have to zero and reset the tracking force each time I change the headshell.

Hey, it happens.
 
Paul C said:
My two headshells appear identical, but a differnce in weight. And with identical cartridges, I have to zero and reset the tracking force each time I change the headshell.

Hey, it happens.
Click to expand...

that bites. i liked the idea of having 2 headshells that i could easily swap without changing any other settings. i'm just glad it wasn't my SFG-2 gauge and i'm not the only one.
 
It doesn't mean you have to rebalance the arm each time. Use one cartridge as the primary for which the arm is balanced at zero. Remove that headshell and replace with the second. Rotate the counterweight to the balance the arm. Leave the dial where it is. Note the setting. Add the required tracking force to that number and note that result. From now on all you have to do is rotate the counterweight to that number for the second cartridge or back to the original tracking force for the first cartridge. No rebalancing necessary. Takes less than a second to make the change each time.
 
There are many factors that can make the difference. One is the mass of the mounting hardware which may be different. Another is the distance of the mass from the arm pivot. The M97 has some of its mass in the brush and ahead of the stylus. This could cause the effective force at the stylus to be greater on the M97.

Fernando
 
hakaplan said:
It doesn't mean you have to rebalance the arm each time. Use one cartridge as the primary for which the arm is balanced at zero. Remove that headshell and replace with the second. Rotate the counterweight to the balance the arm. Leave the dial where it is. Note the setting. Add the required tracking force to that number and note that result. From now on all you have to do is rotate the counterweight to that number for the second cartridge or back to the original tracking force for the first cartridge. No rebalancing necessary. Takes less than a second to make the change each time.
Click to expand...

so i've finally decided to give this a go and i think i got it down.

a) i have my primary shure cartridge on and balance my tonearm, i set it to ZERO (0), adjust the counterweight to 1.8 (tracks on my stylus force gauge at the recommended 1.75) so the counterweight now reads 1.8. i have now spun the dial marker (making sure not to adjust the actual counterweight) to read ZERO (0).

b) now i remove the primary headhshell/cartridge and put on my 2nd cartridge/headshell. balance the tonearm, add the weight (also 1.75) and it now reads a hard 0.3 on my dial. it also tracks at 1.75g like my other cartridge.

c) now i adjust my antiskate to read 1.75 (the tracking force for both)

so when i want to use my primary headshell/cartridge i set my counterweight to ZERO (0) (which is actually 1.75 on when i use my stylus force gauge) and when i wan to use my secondary headshell/cartridge i set my counterweight to 0.3 and the other settings (antiskate) need now adjusting.

i decided to set the scale (not the weight) for my primary cartridge to ZERO (0) after all adjustments were made, for simplicity sake. i thought it would be easier to only remember and then i only have to mark the setting down for the secondary headshell/cartrdige.

does that make sense and seem ok? :scratch2:
 
lplover said:
is the M44 conical or elliptical? I thought it was a DJ cartridge.
Click to expand...

It depends on the stylus used.
I have a M44E that is eliptical, but I frequently see M44s and the corresponding N44 styli that are conical and are marketed for DJ use.
 
Regarding your quick swap headshell technique--perfect! :thmbsp:

Regarding the M44-7, spherical = conical.
 
hakaplan said:
Regarding your quick swap headshell technique--perfect! :thmbsp:

Regarding the M44-7, spherical = conical.
Click to expand...

thanks for your help howard, now i can swap freely. your instructions were perfectly.

so is a conical stylus bad for my records? i was going to replace it with the M44G stylus
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/DJPhonoCartridgesAndNeedles/us_pro_M44G_content
as it has a lower tracking force and might be easier on my lp's as a backup cartridge. or am i better off with the M44-7
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/DJPhonoCartridgesAndNeedles/us_pro_M44-7_content
what do you guys think?
 
brucered said:
thanks for your help howard, now i can swap freely. your instructions were perfectly.

so is a conical stylus bad for my records? i was going to replace it with the M44G stylus
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/DJPhonoCartridgesAndNeedles/us_pro_M44G_content
as it has a lower tracking force and might be easier on my lp's as a backup cartridge. or am i better off with the M44-7
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/DJPhonoCartridgesAndNeedles/us_pro_M44-7_content
what do you guys think?
Click to expand...

No, a conical is not bad for your records. It simply won't reproduce as much detail as an elliptical. There is a mindset with which I agree that you shouldn't run carts at their lowest rated tracking force, as the arm will dance around more and do more damage to the grooves than running it at the high end. If you want to use the M44-7, I'd go with 2g. And even at that force, it won't do damage to your vinyl. But naturally, the lighter tracking M44G is would be even gentler.
 
i'm running the m44-7 right now at about 1.75 - 1.8g. i leave it at that so i don't have to make an adjustments to the antiskate when i swap it with my shure m97xe, that way it's just a simple swap, turn the counterweight and i'm done.

thanks for the help & advise.
 
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