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Stylus needs much more force than specified

Hanspecans

Hanspecans

Member
I have talked about this issue in my Dual 506 thread but I feel like it will get overlooked being very specific title.
This topic may be more general and not a dual issue.

Background. I have finally gotten a proper counter weight for my dual 506 and noticed that the specific tracking force always produces massive inner groove distortion. It only seems to become clear when I double the tracking force.

Is this normal for an older stylus or indicative of something else?

Maybe I just need a new stylus?

Thank you in advance.


Edit: I have been testing all morning with multiple records and styles of music. All of the records I have been testing with are in VG+ to NM condition.
It seems that I have to approach near 4.55-5g of tracking force to mostly eliminate inner groove distortion / inner groove pops and noise.

Also if I attempt to track at 1.5-2g the sound is a bit distorted on the whole record. This is starting to lead me to believe I need a new stylus.
 
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Secondary question.
If it is recommended to get a new stylus should I just the hefty price for the Ortofon DN155E replacement or should I get the 1/2” head shell adapter and a whole new cart / stylus setup?
 
If this needle is OEM then it's either worn or the elastomer has hardened. Either way, 4 - 5gm is much too high for any elliptical.

I can't answer whether it's worth buying a new one vs something else, that's your decision.
 
ripblade said:
If this needle is OEM then it's either worn or the elastomer has hardened. Either way, 4 - 5gm is much too high for any elliptical.

I can't answer whether it's worth buying a new one vs something else, that's your decision.
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Thanks for the reply!

I might just order a new stylus that fits this cart and compare.

What elastomer are you talking about?
 
IMHO, most inner groove distortion is caused by the turntable or arm - or poor arm/cart matching - not just down to the poor old cart.

Unless the cart is somewhat damaged, I would be looking further.
 
Sondek said:
IMHO, most inner groove distortion is caused by the turntable or arm - or poor arm/cart matching - not just down to the poor old cart.

Unless the cart is somewhat damaged, I would be looking further.
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The arm, cart and stylus are all original. So they are matched correctly. And when extra weight is added the inner groove distortion goes away completely.

For now I ordered a new stylus (not a new cart). I will report back with results once that comes.
 
Sondek said:
IMHO, most inner groove distortion is caused by the turntable or arm - or poor arm/cart matching - not just down to the poor old cart.

Unless the cart is somewhat damaged, I would be looking further.
Click to expand...
This is certainly true, but 90% of the time tracking issues are stylus related unless the arm is obviously abused, damaged or defective, or set up incorrectly . Of course, anything's possible, but I would still suspect the needle first assuming all else appears to be alright.
 
If the stylus is faulty or worn, the new stylus might help.

But a normal, worn - NOT CHIPPED - stylus should not cause tracking issues. Only sound quality issues and eventual groove damage.

It sounds to me more like an arm/cart mismatch, in which case a new stylus will not remedy the inner groove distortion.

I suspect this cart is too compliant for the arm. A lower compliance cart may be better.

Time to look at the specific compliance numbers for the arm and cart in question!
 
OP when you list the weight in grams are you measuring this weight or just going off of what the dial on tonearm is stating? Old tables, some of which are my Dual's, we off by up to a gram and a half (due to age and wear).
 
Well too me there is a bind in the axis the arm moves in and not a worn stylus. The anti skate could also be incorrect along with the binding. I will look up the table and "try" to find out more info on that table/arm combo.
 
because of the age of this table it has lubricant dried up in the pivot area towards the end of the arm travel in my opinion. Cleaning that area and readjusting the trcking force and anti-skating hopefully will "fix" this issue. Of course there is always "fixmydual.com" here in the U.S.
 
r_brumett61 said:
because of the age of this table it has lubricant dried up in the pivot area towards the end of the arm travel in my opinion. Cleaning that area and readjusting the trcking force and anti-skating hopefully will "fix" this issue. Of course there is always "fixmydual.com" here in the U.S.
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I’ll try to take a look at the lubrication points today.
I’m guessing this is where I should concentrate. IMG_2314.jpeg
 
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Ok, I was unaware this was an automatic TT. Yes, dried grease in the trip mechanism could very easily account for IGD where all else is good. It's still worth having the stylus inspected if the number of hours on it is unknown.
Sondek said:
If the stylus is faulty or worn, the new stylus might help.

But a normal, worn - NOT CHIPPED - stylus should not cause tracking issues. Only sound quality issues and eventual groove damage.

It sounds to me more like an arm/cart mismatch, in which case a new stylus will not remedy the inner groove distortion.

I suspect this cart is too compliant for the arm. A lower compliance cart may be better.

Time to look at the specific compliance numbers for the arm and cart in question!
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The tracking issues occur at the end. If there was a problem with the arm or a mismatch, tracking issues would be throughout the side, not just at the end.
 
Definitely not a lubrication issue. Just checked everything and it looked fine but cleaned up and re-lubed what I could.

Looked at the anti skate mechanism while under there and it also seemed to be fully operational with no hindrance or issues.

This unit is in surprisingly great and clean condition. I’ve had it since at least 2004 but have just been trying to get it in better shape recently.

Fwiw I did recap the power supply last year after many years of backwards rotation at random times.

I am not going to be very surprised if a new stylus solves this IGD and weight issue.
I’m imagining that this stylus is just worn down like crazy and that’s why it needs more weight to register a good sound. (Unscientific hypothesis I know)
 
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Another little thing is that when I put a little too much tracking force (on certain records) I can hear some very audible scratching in quiet parts / if I turn the volume down. So I end up adjusting to a slightly lighter TF just enough to get off of brutal bad scratching sound and also not to skip or sound become distorted.
 
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