Thanks for the tips on turntables. I didn't realize there was a special thread for "questions of value". That's interesting.
Suggestion for speaker/amp pairings and turntable
- Thread starter Wax4Daze
- Start date
Thanks for the tips on turntables. I didn't realize there was a special thread for "questions of value". That's interesting.
Otherwise those questions would monopolize threads. Other questions about that turntable, ask in turntables. There are some Thorens experts here.
Does your AVR have a phono stage or preamp (phono input)?
I have a few Grado carts. I like them. Some turntables can cause a hum with Grados. Because the Grados are not shielded.
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sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
With the caveat that classical music lovers now do multi-channel for music, with or without video, in the context of two-channel separates, your TV connects to a DAC, either one internal to a component, or an external, standalone DAC.
My TV looks like it has both a 3.5 mm analog audio out, and an optical digital audio out, but only the optical one is really present. It's important for me because I do over-the-air TV, so my TV itself is a source. My multichannel Marantz NR1504 receiver has optical inputs, and so do many two-channel DACs, which range from maybe $8 to $80K. Many have coax inputs (looks like RCA) and/or USB inputs; some have all three.
There are lots of modern two-channel integrated amplifiers that have 'digital inputs', and would be satisfying for most listeners, and simpler to connect as well. They are especially suitable for those who know what they want and don't want to fuss, just buy and enjoy. If you are more of a tinkerer, and want to go further down the rabbit hole, separates offer the opportunity to change out individual components, such as the phono preamp, the DAC, the line preamp, and the power amp, in the pursuit of beautiful sound. And when one component breaks, you don't have to service or replace the whole integrated amplifier, just the piece that broke. Many of us accumulate spare components. That's a warning, kind of.
Makes sense. I'll do a separate post asking about the Thorens turntable within the Turntables forum.
As far as my AVR having a preamp, it does have a ground screw which I think indicates that it has a preamp. It does mention that it cannot be used to connect directly to turntables with MC cartridges. It suggests to use a separate head amplifier or a step-up transformer for turntables with MC cartridges.
With the caveat that classical music lovers now do multi-channel for music, with or without video, in the context of two-channel separates, your TV connects to a DAC, either one internal to a component, or an external, standalone DAC.
My TV looks like it has both a 3.5 mm analog audio out, and an optical digital audio out, but only the optical one is really present. It's important for me because I do over-the-air TV, so my TV itself is a source. My multichannel Marantz NR1504 receiver has optical inputs, and so do many two-channel DACs, which range from maybe $8 to $80K. Many have coax inputs (looks like RCA) and/or USB inputs; some have all three.
There are lots of modern two-channel integrated amplifiers that have 'digital inputs', and would be satisfying for most listeners, and simpler to connect as well. They are especially suitable for those who know what they want and don't want to fuss, just buy and enjoy. If you are more of a tinkerer, and want to go further down the rabbit hole, separates offer the opportunity to change out individual components, such as the phono preamp, the DAC, the line preamp, and the power amp, in the pursuit of beautiful sound. And when one component breaks, you don't have to service or replace the whole integrated amplifier, just the piece that broke. Many of us accumulate spare components. That's a warning, kind of.
Ok, that's very helpful. So, if I determine that my Denon AVR is not sufficient enough to drive the speakers I choose, I could buy an integrated amp with digital inputs to connect to the TV? In this situation, would I get rid of the AVR, and just use the Integrated amp? Or combine the integrated amp with another more powerful amp?
sqlsavior
Lunatic Member
Yes, you could.
Here's where I would defer to others more knowledgable than I. My two channel and multi-channel systems are separate, and that makes my choices easier. I think the easiest way to keep multi-channel capability is being lucky enough that your current AVR satisfies you with your new speakers. The next easiest way would be to buy a new AVR, in which case I would recommend modern Marantz - SR or NR lines - my friend's SR7008 sounds great, even the phono stage. After that, there are two-channel amps with a 'home theater bypass' option, and folks who reverse-wire speaker switches to become amp switches, etc. I don't feel qualified to advise on those choices. Perhaps someone else can be more specific on how they've done it.
I heard back from the stereo store that carries the Monitor Audio Bronze 500 speakers, and their policy is that refunds are only accepted up to two weeks from the point of purchase, and there is a 20% restocking fee if I want to return them. Since he was going to give me a deal on them, I would have to pay them about $230 for the restocking fee if the speakers didn't work for me. On the other hand, if I ordered them from Crutchfield, I would have 60 days to audition them and it would cost $24 to ship them back. As far as I can tell there is no restocking fee that applies with Crutchfield. So, I would save $150 by buying them from this local store, but would lose $229 if I decided I didn't like them. Whereas, I would pay full price for the speakers at Crutchfield, but would have more flexibility with return time and less cost to return them if they didn't work for me. This is why it's so hard to audition speakers in your own environment.
Would you consider used Monitor Audio speakers? You could investigate through reviews in magazines and online on thier speakers. If professional reviews suggest they have a "house sound" amoung thier bronze, silver and gold lines. And just possibly refinement as go up in price. Size being equal. If you found bronze or step up silver series used, that you could make sure functionally worked. If you didn't over pay. And didn't like them. Maybe you could resell without or little loss. Might take patience to wait for some for sale locally. Since returned new speakers would cost you no small sum., restocking. And/or shipping.
Just my thoughts since you seem to be unsure. Not criticizing, everyones different. The store may think reselling an opened box speaker may require discounting. Often the case.
Just my thoughts since you seem to be unsure. Not criticizing, everyones different. The store may think reselling an opened box speaker may require discounting. Often the case.
Hi OldGuy8. I think that I'm leaning towards just purchasing through Crutchfield, as this gives me more time to audition the speakers and I'll only be out $24 if they need to be returned. If I knew for sure that they were going to sound great with my setup, then I would probably just go with purchasing from the local shop.
Don Gillies
Member
Honestly ....
Speakers- Paradigm Performance Series- Model 5SE- MK II- Over 30 years old, and one of the speakers is blown
I put a lot of effort into researching my purchases, so that if something breaks even 5Y later it's usually STILL the best choice and I'd just buy it again. If one of your Paradigm speakers is blown I think it can be rebuilt for maybe $150 - $250 (I don't really know about this I've never had it done but the youtube videos don't look too hard to emulate). Then you could have your ?old? speakers back. On the other hand, if you are actually looking for something better and are happy to drop $1100 - $2000 on new speakers and it makes you happy, be my guest.
The rest of your system sounds nice but nothing as golden-ear-like as a $1100 - $2000 set of speakers. I am running a vintage system inspired by my dad's 1968 system including a Dual 1019 turntable + Shure M55e elliptial 2x7 (=Shure V15 type 1) and it makes me very happy when I play a record, and I bought it used locally for $200. With the money left over I can experiment with exotic needles (SAS or Shibata, all available for Shure cartridges.) With $800 to burn I'd probably buy more vinyl, CDs, or get another 2Y streaming subscription.
Speakers- Paradigm Performance Series- Model 5SE- MK II- Over 30 years old, and one of the speakers is blown
I put a lot of effort into researching my purchases, so that if something breaks even 5Y later it's usually STILL the best choice and I'd just buy it again. If one of your Paradigm speakers is blown I think it can be rebuilt for maybe $150 - $250 (I don't really know about this I've never had it done but the youtube videos don't look too hard to emulate). Then you could have your ?old? speakers back. On the other hand, if you are actually looking for something better and are happy to drop $1100 - $2000 on new speakers and it makes you happy, be my guest.
The rest of your system sounds nice but nothing as golden-ear-like as a $1100 - $2000 set of speakers. I am running a vintage system inspired by my dad's 1968 system including a Dual 1019 turntable + Shure M55e elliptial 2x7 (=Shure V15 type 1) and it makes me very happy when I play a record, and I bought it used locally for $200. With the money left over I can experiment with exotic needles (SAS or Shibata, all available for Shure cartridges.) With $800 to burn I'd probably buy more vinyl, CDs, or get another 2Y streaming subscription.
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Don Gillies
Member
Just an FYI the Klipsch 8000F's are very highly regarded on amazon and in the video here:
Alternately you could get the smaller Klipsch Atmos R-625FA's for the same cost or the 8060's Atmos speakers ($950/ea).
Alternately you could get the smaller Klipsch Atmos R-625FA's for the same cost or the 8060's Atmos speakers ($950/ea).
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twiiii
Lunatic Member
I would start all over with high grade of speakers making sure the front three are identical if you are into HT big time. Then you have to decide if you need to waste money on subs. If the speakers are great for Stereo listening you don't need subs. If they need subs they are not great stereo speakers. Now I admit if you chose dynamically compromised B&W 804's you might get by with using B&W subs. But 3 802's would be a better choice. three Hersey MK IV with subs with smoother highs will work too. But I would recommend you keep looking. Go audition speakers. Its harder now days, but its still the best and only way to do it correctly. One advantage to AVR's is they usually have Odyssey built in to smooth things out a bit. Which helps with Stereo systems, too. Why spend thousands of dollars on a system and end up with a +/- 10 db frequency response in your room. Seems ridiculous to me. If you are using an integrated AVR your speakers should at least have a 96 db 1 meter 1 watt rating. and be able to handle 100 watts. Any less sensitivity and you have to make it up with more power. 90 db sensitivity means 400 watts. Ouch..$$$$$$ Remember at 10 ft listening distance you have lost approximately 10 db of output from your speakers. So 1 watt 90 db becomes 1 watt 80 db. Movie levels normally for loudest levels are about 100 to 104 db. 100 to 200+ watts.
96 db becomes 86 db so 103 db is 50 watts. A difference for sure. Then try listening at 16 ft like I do. Thats even more power.
96 db becomes 86 db so 103 db is 50 watts. A difference for sure. Then try listening at 16 ft like I do. Thats even more power.
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Yeah, I also read multiple reviews for people saying that they liked them, but I didn't like the sound of the horn tweeter. To my ears, they came off as bright and shrill.
I ended up purchasing the Monitor Audio Bronze 500's, and have been auditioning them for a couple days. The first evening, I mostly played CD's at a medium listening level, and they sounded clear with a decent amount of bass. Then, the next evening I played various vinyl records that included rock, funk, hip-hop and soul. I noticed that I had to pump the volume up considerably to get the same enjoyment out of the speakers when listening to vinyl. While the records sounded good, I felt that there was something missing in the bass level. I tried to move the speakers closer to the wall, but didn't notice much of a difference in the bass. I then set them up to be toe-in on each side about 16" from the wall, and then there was a better soundstage. I'm trying to determine if these speakers just require a lot more power than my Denon AVR 2300 can offer, or if the problem is my turntable. It's definitely a lower-end Pioneer turntable that I'm looking to replace. It's not that the records sound bad. They're just not as exciting as I expected them to be in relation to the ways most of the CD's I've played.
Here are the specs for these speakers. Do you think I need an amplifier closer to 200 W to get the best out of these speakers, or could I get away with 100-125 W.
21/2-Way
Frequency Response (-6 dB)
41 – 25,000 Hz (Free field)
32 – 30,000 Hz (In room)
Sensitivity (2.83v @ 1m)
90 dB
Nominal Impedance
8 ohms
Minimum Impedance
4.1 ohms
Maximum SPL
116 dBA (pair)
Power Handling (RMS)
200 W
Recommended Amplifier Requirements
60 — 200 W
Bass Alignment
Bass reflex Dual HiVe II port system
Crossover Frequency
550 Hz
2,700 Hz
Drive Unit Complement
2 x 8" C-CAM midbass driver
1 x 25 mm C-CAM Gold Dome tweeter with UD Waveguide
External Dimensions (Including Grille and Terminals (H x W x D))
951 x 231 x 325 mm (377/16 x 91/8 x 1213/16")
External Dimensions (including Outrigger Feet and Spikes (H x W x D))
974 x 294 x 364 mm (383/8 x 119/16 x 145/16")
Weight (each)
18 kg (39 lb 11 oz)
Sold As
Pair
twiiii
Lunatic Member
Room Gain can be a marvelous plus if your speakers are placed correctly extending the bass response. Knowing how close to place them near or in a corner or near a wall can take many hours of skilled listening. Having a spectrum analyzer or the right App for your iPhone or ipad makes it so much easier and rewarding.
Hi twiiii. That makes sense. Do you know what spectrum analyzer apps there are for the iphone, and is there a specific one that you recommend?
twiiii
Lunatic Member
I use a stand alone analyzer, but I remember seeing seeing nothers talk about them on this site. I explored a few 3 or 4 years ago and versions for the Apple 10 and 10x were just becoming available. The problem was figuring out how to accurate measurements above 7 or 8 khz or so. I am sure they have things worked out by now. Google audio spectrum analyzer apps for iPhone or iPad.